Deep Fakes!

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Whirly
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Deep Fakes!

Unread post by Whirly » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:15 pm

Who watched Carte Blanche last night and saw the portion about this? Scary stuff and quite worrying! 8-[

They can now make it look like someone said something when they never did, or put you in places you have never been, and it is very hard to detect these fakes. Some scammers stole $250k from a company by impersonating the CEO, fortunately he called at the same time and they could stop the transfers and limit the damage.

What is the World coming to? :(

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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by Wilco » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:21 pm

I have a family friend whose specialization is cyber security. I don't know the exact details but it was something along the lines of what you mentioned using voice technology and computer technology the criminals were successfully able to scam close to $10 million USD from a corporation by impersonating the CEO or CFO. Talking to my friend, it seems the problems will only get much worse as it is difficult to prosecute these gangs because they operate all over the world as these cyber criminals are becoming multi national gangs. This is akin to the stuff we see in movies such as Mission Impossible....Science fiction is slowly becoming science fact.
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:30 pm

for goodness sake.
If you fall for this rather amateurish stuff then you really need to unplug the PC and bury it.
Unless you want to believe it is true, it is quite obviously fake to anyone paying attention.

For the love of everything holy and pure, that isn't "AI".
Everything these days is "AI". What they should be meaning is - Another idiot.

Underneath twitter, Carte Blanche is #2 on the list of things needing to be smited.

Rather spend your time and look at all the stuff that you have forwarded via WhatsApp, half of that is properly false, it may actually have happened but has been removed from it's original context and then repeated with a different caption.
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by Wilco » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:54 pm

cage,
Honestly mate from what he told me these are pretty sophisticated operations these cyber criminals set up which fool highly intelligent people.

These cyber criminals scour one's social media accounts (faceebook, linkedin etc). Compile info about business acquaintances and contacts, projects that they have worked on. These are no longer your Nigerian 419 scammers. These new guys and their data gathering capabilities make some foreign intelligence agencies seem like amateurs.
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:00 pm

Wilco wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:54 pm
cage,
Honestly mate from what he told me these are pretty sophisticated operations these cyber criminals set up which fool highly intelligent people.

These cyber criminals scour one's social media accounts (faceebook, linkedin etc). Compile info about business acquaintances and contacts, projects that they have worked on. These are no longer your Nigerian 419 scammers. These new guys and their data gathering capabilities make some foreign intelligence agencies seem like amateurs.
We do work in security (huge growth industry).
It is clever what they get up to , but it’s not sophisticated.
Most people put far too much personal info on the internet, unsecured.
It shouldn’t be a surprise when they are targeted.
Unfortunately most people aren’t savvy enough and believe anything they see.
It’s just a new form of the con and it can only exist because we make it easy for them to do so.
Some basic good practice and awareness can put an end to it.
They often target older, less tech-savvy people. Again, that’s not a new concept.
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by Wilco » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:31 pm

Criminals are indeed getting more sophisticated, now it is making sure that people stay as savvy as possible because I think these crimes will become much harder to detect.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ai-could-m ... cle_inline

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/frauds ... 1567157402
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by cage » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:28 pm

Wilco,
Amazon used "AI" to try improve the hiring of staff.
The algorhythm worked out that most of the staff were men, so therefore calculated the best staff would be male, and promptly ignored female applications.

We're not under attack from "AI" anytime soon.

I have worked in tech for far too many years so I wouldn't believe a word I say.
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by snoopy » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:06 am

Well just to put your mind at rest banks also employ AI (machine learning). :wink:

But if you have the right processes in place in your business - you'e not going to get conned so easily...just dont sleep on the job.

My business batted another con artist last week - who tried to pull a R1/2 mil scam. He even employed cyber squatting a corporate's domain - to try and do it. A bit of due diligence sorted that one out. So far he has attempted to scam about 20 companies according to the CFO of the Midrand corporate who's details he's using to try and scam other businesses - using the same corporate's identity financial and tax details, logos etc.

SAPS haven't been very effective in catching the blik*m though...case number has been running a while. And the hosting company that the perp is using for cyber squatting fraud - isnt prepared to play along to nail the perp.

The more corporate info and data they collect - the more ammo they have to pull off more scams, and they usually use tender submissions, quotes and invoices and other collected info of staff, to copy business identities. The stuff people toss in bins far too easily instead of shredding it - or forgetting to properly sanitize storage of old computer systems before disposing of it.

Another non light complexion number, probably also from West African origin.

Anyway my counter intelligence training from my military days has paid off well over the years in civilian business. To outwit them you got to think like their profiles would.
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by cage » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:02 am

I don't understand what sort of business gets run where a voice instruction or email can result in a payment, let alone one of large value.
We've received the same emails, they are quite obviously fake, originating from addresses that aren't ours.

wrt to synthetic voices, it has taken apple, amazon, google etc lots of time and money to create an artificial voice that sounds realistic.
You can't just turn this into anyone elses voice on demand, the tech doesn't work that way.
There is no way someone could produce anything at short notice which could be considered natural or that wouldn't raise suspicion,
It's one thing doing an average immitation of Obama/Trump, it's another for a "normal" voice.
They are just using new ways to exploit susceptible people and processes, something which should have protections in the modern world.
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:28 am

cage wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:02 am
I don't understand what sort of business gets run where a voice instruction or email can result in a payment, let alone one of large value.
We've received the same emails, they are quite obviously fake, originating from addresses that aren't ours.
Attorneys property conveyancing business (as well as other Trust fund transactions) pretty much runs this way. Many millions involved all told.
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by cage » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:33 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:28 am
cage wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:02 am
I don't understand what sort of business gets run where a voice instruction or email can result in a payment, let alone one of large value.
We've received the same emails, they are quite obviously fake, originating from addresses that aren't ours.
Attorneys property conveyancing business (as well as other Trust fund transactions) pretty much runs this way. Many millions involved all told.
Which is probably why convenyancing was so aggressively targetted by scammers.
No business should use a single medium for approvals or allow one individual to release payments.
You're just asking for trouble.
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by excolonial » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:48 pm

snoopy wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:06 am
Well just to put your mind at rest banks also employ AI (machine learning). :wink:
Well, at the bank I was working for in Singapore, we had a team of PHD's(albeit very poorly paid ones) working on AI. My boss was very excited about it. I cautioned him not to hang his hat on what was certain to amount to "vapourware". The team was dissolved and the projected cancelled after two years of what amounted to intellectual masturbation. Robotics was another buzzword project that was given legs by the incompetent, so easily deceived by the dishonest and lazy. It amounted to a undeployable undecipherable unusable mess that did nothing meaningful.

Machine learning is a misnomer, I think should be called cumulative parameterised scenario analysis. Very useful for mechanical applications, and those disciplines that do not involve human behaviours. We do a lot of behavioural analysis, but even these are of limited value given the non linear behaviour of people, and the increasing volatility an unpredictability of the financial markets. They are useful to test our ability to cope with certain behaviours, and to satisfy the regulators need for us to prove we know what we are doing...

This vapourware trend will continue as long as there are technologically illiterate people in positions of authority. Simulated AI is of course a reality, but it is obviously totally dependant on the those that design it. The skills mix required is frankly huge, and the level of excellence likewise, and then of course it becomes a question of processing power and storage capacity.

In other words - Google.
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by cage » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:16 pm

The tech industry has always been a very "me too" industry (no not that kind of me too, more of everyone claims to do the same thing, or jumps on the same bandwagon).
It reinvents itself constantly with a new label.
Right now we are finally moving past "the internet of things" to everything being AI or machine learning.
It's just the same automation stuff that has been around for ages, with a new coat of paint and lengthy powerpoint.

It is not HAL, nor is it that clever.
There are applications for predictive analysis, most of which has been made possible by collecting and mining large volumes of data produced by device sensors and user behavior.
But it's not new.
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by SlowApproach » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:31 pm

You too can have some fun if you understand what CNNs (Convolutional Neural Networks) can do :wink: ...

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180972296/
and
https://petapixel.com/2019/05/24/samsun ... lking-head

BTW, "Voice Cloning" (i.e. where someone's voice can be mimicked almost perfectly by someone else) is fast becoming a reality. (Now if we could get samples of cage's voice we might be able to have some more fun... :wink: :lol:)
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Re: Deep Fakes!

Unread post by cage » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:13 am

SlowApproach wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:31 pm
is fast becoming a reality..
not quite.
Most voice tech is rooted in text to speech or speech to text.
The latter to get right is a mission, heavily dependent on accent, needing huge libraries as the basis for understanding the subtleties of dialect.
Going the other way isn't any easier.
It is easy to make a computer say something, it is not easy to make it say something authentically and naturally.
It's a bit like copying old VHS tapes, it works but isn't as good as the original.

Many people are gullible and not particularly observant so will fall for anything.

To get where we are with voice tech has taken a long, long time and lots of money.
We're a long way from mission impossible technology.

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