Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

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Airwayfreak
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:13 pm

Jean Crous wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:33 am
Ai-ai-ai.....that bit about "the pilot started to loose control over the aircraft" :roll: .
Jean.
No matter how judgemental that may sound, it is exactly what happened. The pilots did start losing control. Had they not lost any control they would have landed safely. Had they lost total control they would probably have died. Unfortunately with these big old twin radials, EFATO incidents need to be managed precisely, especially when loaded as they were. These guys did a sterling job and losing some control is by no means a sleight on their piloting skills.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Jean Crous » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:22 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:13 pm
Jean Crous wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:33 am
Ai-ai-ai.....that bit about "the pilot started to loose control over the aircraft" :roll: .
Jean.
No matter how judgemental that may sound, it is exactly what happened. The pilots did start losing control. Had they not lost any control they would have landed safely. Had they lost total control they would probably have died. Unfortunately with these big old twin radials, EFATO incidents need to be managed precisely, especially when loaded as they were. These guys did a sterling job and losing some control is by no means a sleight on their piloting skills.
Point taken thanks.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:50 pm

when did restoration work start ?, she was abandoned for a long time.
how many test flights before this one ?
what were the regular occurring snags ?...trend of problems ?

the cockpit crew member must have been confident enough, to even take his own wife with on this flight
sometimes we suffer a bit from C.R.A.F.T. sickness..Can't Remember A F@#%ing Thing

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by boneman » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:56 pm

Airfire wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:55 am
Walter105 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:18 am
Why would the survivors have been flown to Milpark? Surely there are hospitals in Pretoria that are closer? Unitas etc?
Head paramedics/Doctor choice on scene,better trauma unit or other personal reasons,that's why.
Milpark Trauma centre is the only international accredited Level 1 trauma unit in our area. That implies that there is a Trauma surgeon on premises and all the other specialists on short notice. A team with extensive experience and all the nessasary equipment at hand.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by wingnutzster » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:01 pm

kudu177 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:43 am
Jean Crous wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:33 am
Ai-ai-ai.....that bit about "the pilot started to loose control over the aircraft" :roll: . If that was the case they would all be dead, and the chap telling the the aforementioned would NOT have been saying what he did.
That's a quote from a passenger who had never flown before. So, he can be forgiven for thinking that the pilot had lost control. He was in a plane crash, after all.
Jean Crous wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:33 am
I find reporting on aviation accidents is worse than on other accidents. Or is it just me .......?Jean.
Sorry, Jean, bad reporting is not the preserve of air crashes. It happens everywhere. But aviation is shrouded in mystery.

One problem is that the armchair experts - such as us on Avcom who are here because we love aviation, and know something about aircraft - expect a much higher level of knowledge among general everyday reporters than is reasonable or practical.

Look at the speculation on Avcom after an accident. Much of it is postulating and theorising and shots in the dark - from people who know how planes fly - and even then, often the truth is obscured.

Now imagine a junior news reporter, who until Tuesday might never have even heard the word "Convair" or maybe even "Wonderboom", is sent off to cover an aircraft crash and then walk into a blizzard of conflicting information and "facts".

These are some of the the problems facing a reporter:

-- Eyewitness accounts of any event are notoriously unreliable and usually conflicting
-- Poor or absent briefings from EMS, police, authorities ...
-- The "fog of war" where even the people involved may not know what has happened (see also "shock", below)
-- Blackouts: sources/eyewitnesses/protagonists gagged or barred from talking to the media
-- Heavy pressure from news editors to get the story out before the competition. Equals hasty reporting equals errors
-- Understaffed newsrooms in which there are very few dedicated "beat" reporters, eg. journos who cover aviation or even just transport
-- And, in the case of something traumatic like an accident,good old shock and trauma both among survivors and onlookers

I guarantee you every one of these factors was present on Tuesday night.

Most times I'm surprised that they get any story at all.

Paul (30-year career journalist)
One of the wisest and well put posts I've seen on this site for a long time!! I agree 100% if that wasn't clear already =D> =D>
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Walter105 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:52 pm

Thanks for all the info on the hospital. Learned something new.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Smokin01 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:24 pm

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:50 pm

sometimes we suffer a bit from C.R.A.F.T. sickness..Can't Remember A F@#%ing Thing

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Starship » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:12 am

The Australian pilots flying both ZS-BRV and ZS-ARV in 2016 prior to the ferry flight of ARV to the HARS Aviation Museum at Albion Park, New South Wales in August of that year.

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by airmotive » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:44 am

There seems to be lots of local info on this ship; any idea if there was a CVR or FDR installed?
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by rudolphschar » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:51 am

paulw wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:10 am
The person on the ground who died of injuries was a worker at the Moorddrift Dairy. Thabang Moloto (19)
https://www.netwerk24.com/Nuus/Algemeen ... e-20180712

It now appears that he did not die. It was some kind of misunderstanding about a person that committed suicide by jumping from a building.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Bleriot » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:39 am

I had a very interesting chat with a very highly experienced pilot who witnessed this crash as he was invited to be on the flight but decided not to fly but rather watch the take-off from the ground. He positioned himself under the flight path near the end of the runway and then decided to move more to the side. He said that the crew did quite long power checks before the take off as water injection was going to be used and had not been used on previous flights. The motor let go at the worst possible time at V2 and they were past the point of stopping in the space available. The plane passed overhead and the motor was still producing power as the prop had not feathered yet but did so shortly after that. He watched for as long as he could until he lost sight and had to move position to get a better view but by then it had crashed.

He then drove to the crash site expecting the worst and was surprised to see that all except the flight engineer had survived, the fact that the building took the wings off the fuselage is what he said saved the lives of these people.

He said that when the aircraft was in the air it was not in a position to turn as it was on the limit. He was of the opinion that no pilot could have done any better in that situation and the fact that anyone survived is a miracle.

I am an RC enthusiast and have flown many scale twins of all different designs and have had a number of situations and prangs that have shown me the difficulty of flying a twin once a motor cuts. If you have height and speed it is survivable, when you are low and slow it is another issue. The power from the good motor causes a yaw to the dead engine that has to be countered with rudder and sometimes aileron, This input causes drag which then requires more power to be needed, then more control input. Allowing the aircraft to turn into the dead engine is easy at the start of the turn but can be fatal when you cannot stop the turn when you want.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Hannes » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:04 am

Found the following article on the web:

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFA ... 201007.PDF

Interesting read....



Bleriot wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:39 am
I had a very interesting chat with a very highly experienced pilot who witnessed this crash as he was invited to be on the flight but decided not to fly but rather watch the take-off from the ground. He positioned himself under the flight path near the end of the runway and then decided to move more to the side. He said that the crew did quite long power checks before the take off as water injection was going to be used and had not been used on previous flights. The motor let go at the worst possible time at V2 and they were past the point of stopping in the space available. The plane passed overhead and the motor was still producing power as the prop had not feathered yet but did so shortly after that. He watched for as long as he could until he lost sight and had to move position to get a better view but by then it had crashed.

He then drove to the crash site expecting the worst and was surprised to see that all except the flight engineer had survived, the fact that the building took the wings off the fuselage is what he said saved the lives of these people.

He said that when the aircraft was in the air it was not in a position to turn as it was on the limit. He was of the opinion that no pilot could have done any better in that situation and the fact that anyone survived is a miracle.

I am an RC enthusiast and have flown many scale twins of all different designs and have had a number of situations and prangs that have shown me the difficulty of flying a twin once a motor cuts. If you have height and speed it is survivable, when you are low and slow it is another issue. The power from the good motor causes a yaw to the dead engine that has to be countered with rudder and sometimes aileron, This input causes drag which then requires more power to be needed, then more control input. Allowing the aircraft to turn into the dead engine is easy at the start of the turn but can be fatal when you cannot stop the turn when you want.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:46 am

Thanks so much Starship, that was a very interesting and well made video. =D> =D> =D>

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by MirageIII » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:49 am

Article on ZS-ARV's ferry flight to Australia from the Rovos Rail blog.

http://www.rovos.com/blog/zs-arv-lands-australia/
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