Radial Rocket down at Bara

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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by heisan » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:00 am

Volo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:52 am
I am wondering whether it would be better to wheel that beast on to the ground . Three pointing it seems to be a case of running out of authority everywhere. :?:

Would they have had enough runway for a wheeler? Looks like a 3-pointer on the numbers, with aggressive breaking, used about 3/4 of the runway...
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by jungmann303 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:35 am

Frank Persson wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:01 am
My heart goes out to Derek Frasca. Definitely repairable. Composite Propellar so this may have saved radial engine. Wheels did get knocked off but no other obvious danger. She is a hot ship with small Wing area. I’m told 70 square feet( stand to correction) approach speed landing typically 110 mph
This specific aircraft was just after a maiden flight at Krugersdorp 15 of May. During the flight it was discovered a number of issues affecting the precise engine power and propeller RPM controlling. It was apparently fixed and other pilot undertake flights. This is absolutely good, pleasant and easy manageable classic aircraft. Need conscious energy management, especial during the approach and touch down, which is straight related to speeds. V ref should be in area of 75 kts (with a full flaps application) and V approach, with full flaps max 85 kts, adjusted very little if needed, for the ambient condition. Touch down with such a precise speed control will secure 3 point touch down with minimum kinetic energy, easily absorbed by the wheel brakes.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by jungmann303 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:42 am

Bassboy wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:15 am
Cornell Blok wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:34 am
I work in Delporton, on the side that faces Munsieville and I remember watching them putting this through its paces on what I assume was it's maiden flight and that approach to land was pretty scary, the sink rate on that plane is quite something and you can see on the vid when the pilot had to quickly give throttle.....I was holding my breath :shock:

Beautiful plane though, hope they get her back together soon and tame that beast :D
Yes, it was the maiden flight completed 15 of May. It was experienced during this flight, difficulties with the precise engine power, and propeller RPM controlling. It was almost unable to stabilise approach with desired V approach, but approach was in the stable approach bracket, and landing decision was made and accomplished. Just required a bit of non standard skills to deal with the problems.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by jungmann303 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:54 am

heisan wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:00 am
Volo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:52 am
I am wondering whether it would be better to wheel that beast on to the ground . Three pointing it seems to be a case of running out of authority everywhere. :?:

Would they have had enough runway for a wheeler? Looks like a 3-pointer on the numbers, with aggressive breaking, used about 3/4 of the runway...
ONLY 3 pointer landing on this aircraft should be applicable, there is no any problems with the airframe controlling authority, condition that, all the systems are working correctly, which wasn't a case during the maiden flight.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by ACE MAN » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:29 pm

jungmann303 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:54 am
heisan wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:00 am
Volo wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:52 am
I am wondering whether it would be better to wheel that beast on to the ground . Three pointing it seems to be a case of running out of authority everywhere. :?:

Would they have had enough runway for a wheeler? Looks like a 3-pointer on the numbers, with aggressive breaking, used about 3/4 of the runway...
ONLY 3 pointer landing on this aircraft should be applicable, there is no any problems with the airframe controlling authority, condition that, all the systems are working correctly, which wasn't a case during the maiden flight.
Why do you say “only 3 pointer” . What do you base this on. What would your advice then be on an RV8 or pacer then , and what experience level do you base that on - just asking
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Multirotordronepilot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:24 pm

STEEL wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:35 am
That vert stab and rudder seems very small for the size of aircraft.
How much of that is blanked off by the fuse during the 3-point attitude coming into land,
making controlling even more of a handful at the lower airspeeds on the ground.

You can see the rudder working hard in the video...
Agree with you. In fact it appears in the video as though he resorts to mechanical braking for direction control when then ground speed is low enough.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Multirotordronepilot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:33 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:15 am
Sideslip wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:38 am
The video posted above was from the maiden flight around 14/15 May at FAKR

The test pilot posted on the various watsapp groups a very candid account of what happened. The owner was in the aircraft with the test pilot at the time of the incident. The test pilot had about 3 hours on the aircraft so far.

The TP has many hours on S1 Pitts specials as well as heavier taildraggers.
Thanks, Mike. There is something strange happening. My first take on seeing that clip is that the pilot is way behind the aircraft. That landing just doesn't seem consistent with a really experienced, and current taildragger pilot.

I wonder whether the owner was feeling it through with the test pilot flying, and he hampered the TP's movements.

I have no doubt that it is indeed a handful, but that looked like a very amateur attempt at a landing. I simply don't understand what's going on.

Mike can you give us a bit more from the candid WhatsApp account?

jim
Obviously other have indicated no pax in this flight, But still I 100% agree with you Jim as you see it regardless. And as Roger said why risk the save ? just take power and line up again. But its a very high risk approach as seen in the video with a new aircraft. Over confident ?

Relieved to read that the PIC gave an accurate account of events as he reportedly did. That is a big show of respect for the aircraft and owner and deserves high praise. Well done

My word what a looker she is, Like a SU just nicer.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Whirly » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:43 pm

Multirotordronepilot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:33 pm
jimdavis wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:15 am
Sideslip wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:38 am
The video posted above was from the maiden flight around 14/15 May at FAKR

The test pilot posted on the various watsapp groups a very candid account of what happened. The owner was in the aircraft with the test pilot at the time of the incident. The test pilot had about 3 hours on the aircraft so far.

The TP has many hours on S1 Pitts specials as well as heavier taildraggers.
Thanks, Mike. There is something strange happening. My first take on seeing that clip is that the pilot is way behind the aircraft. That landing just doesn't seem consistent with a really experienced, and current taildragger pilot.

I wonder whether the owner was feeling it through with the test pilot flying, and he hampered the TP's movements.

I have no doubt that it is indeed a handful, but that looked like a very amateur attempt at a landing. I simply don't understand what's going on.

Mike can you give us a bit more from the candid WhatsApp account?

jim
Obviously other have indicated no pax in this flight, But still I 100% agree with you Jim as you see it regardless. And as Roger said why risk the save ? just take power and line up again. But its a very high risk approach as seen in the video with a new aircraft. Over confident ?

Relieved to read that the PIC gave an accurate account of events as he reportedly did. That is a big show of respect for the aircraft and owner and deserves high praise. Well done

My word what a looker she is, Like a SU just nicer.
MDP,

Just read a little bit more of the whole thread and you will know why the approach was "hot" and why he decided to rather save the landing than to execute a go-around. I would have done the same.

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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Multirotordronepilot » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:55 pm

Whirly wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:43 pm
Multirotordronepilot wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:33 pm
jimdavis wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:15 am


Thanks, Mike. There is something strange happening. My first take on seeing that clip is that the pilot is way behind the aircraft. That landing just doesn't seem consistent with a really experienced, and current taildragger pilot.

I wonder whether the owner was feeling it through with the test pilot flying, and he hampered the TP's movements.

I have no doubt that it is indeed a handful, but that looked like a very amateur attempt at a landing. I simply don't understand what's going on.

Mike can you give us a bit more from the candid WhatsApp account?

jim
Obviously other have indicated no pax in this flight, But still I 100% agree with you Jim as you see it regardless. And as Roger said why risk the save ? just take power and line up again. But its a very high risk approach as seen in the video with a new aircraft. Over confident ?

Relieved to read that the PIC gave an accurate account of events as he reportedly did. That is a big show of respect for the aircraft and owner and deserves high praise. Well done

My word what a looker she is, Like a SU just nicer.
MDP,

Just read a little bit more of the whole thread and you will know why the approach was "hot" and why he decided to rather save the landing than to execute a go-around. I would have done the same.

Whirly.
Aaah yes referring to an expected delay in response on power. That's a valid point wrt to going around or not.

I think the approach was not "hot" my opinion is that the intention to execute a 3 pointer resulted in a lower than ideal airspeed which is the reason for the initial bounce. Of course with no knowledge of the performance specs or what the indicated values were but by the footage as seen in the video.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by E816 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:46 pm

Whirly wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:43 pm
I would have done the same.
I think having 400hp on tap, but not know when or how (or if) its going to be delivered, in a tail dragger, took the go around off the table.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Marty » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:07 pm

E816 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:46 pm
Whirly wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:43 pm
I would have done the same.
I think having 400hp on tap, but not know when or how (or if) its going to be delivered, in a tail dragger, took the go around off the table.
For those who know the standard M14P there is a lag in power when one goes from idle to taking power and the delay can be a second or two just enough to make a significant difference in a critical moment. If you are on short finals and need an extra burst.. you probably not going to get it when you expect it or need it.
Some M14P's have a mod to prevent this "turbo Lag" ( as it feels similar) Im not sure if this engine was modified.

M
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Orthin Opter » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:03 pm

ACE MAN wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:29 pm
Why do you say “only 3 pointer” . What do you base this on. What would your advice then be on an RV8 or pacer then , and what experience level do you base that on - just asking
Ace. go back to a post by E816 "As I understand test pilot is very experienced and was a display pilot for some european country's (forget the country) national display team ... (Read Eastern Bloc.) The Test pilot was not the problem.
If that were my aircraft, assembled at FAKR, then the first flight would have been to some other airfield with long, wide runways. (Not BarraG.) and there would have been no gawkers / press / TV invited. It would have been a quiet affair, the (highly trained) test pilot would have been given free reign and I would have followed in another aircraft, or by road to the landing airfield.
As Yungmann303 (the test pilot) said, there were problems with the engine and perhaps (what he did not say) problems with others involved in the building of the aircraft? Take note, he did the first flight then left. Why? Why he landed downhill in near calm conditions is a mystery to me, considering his experience and training. Look at the video 0:12 windsock 1 shows 2-3 kts headwind. 0:17 windsock 2 shows calm to perhaps a slight tailwind. 0:23 windsock 3 shows calm with sock pressed against the pole, indicating perhaps a slight tailwind. If the wind was calm / light variable / across the runway. Why land downhill?
And as for the bounce: Roger, it only bounced once, so ride it out.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Wildcat_004 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:15 pm

Looking at the video: very poor approach as speed looks lower than required. Landing not very controlled. Almost left the runway due to lack of proper control. Tried to stop too quickly with lots of runway to spare. This “ test pilot” was not doing this approach in a stable manner. Almost lost it at short finals.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by Burner » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:39 pm

Wildcat_004 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:15 pm
Looking at the video: very poor approach as speed looks lower than required. Landing not very controlled. Almost left the runway due to lack of proper control. Tried to stop too quickly with lots of runway to spare. This “ test pilot” was not doing this approach in a stable manner. Almost lost it at short finals.
Absolutely... terrible pilot induced oscillation on touch down, and short final.
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Re: Radial Rocket down at Bara

Unread post by jungmann303 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:41 pm

Wildcat_004 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:15 pm
Looking at the video: very poor approach as speed looks lower than required. Landing not very controlled. Almost left the runway due to lack of proper control. Tried to stop too quickly with lots of runway to spare. This “ test pilot” was not doing this approach in a stable manner. Almost lost it at short finals.
Dear Sir, your judgment is wrong because you have no full information about the maiden flight circumstances. I assume that you had no opportunity to read my previous entry. Please forgive me for repeating. If you need for some reason my full account, with the owner permission I can give publicly my full report...” This specific aircraft was just after a maiden flight at Krugersdorp 15 of May. During the flight it was discovered a number of issues affecting the precise engine power and propeller RPM controlling. It was apparently fixed and other pilot undertake flights. This is absolutely good, pleasant and easy manageable classic aircraft. Need conscious energy management, especial during the approach and touch down, which is straight related to speeds. V ref should be in area of 75 kts (with a full flaps application) and V approach, with full flaps max 85 kts, adjusted very little if needed, for the ambient condition. Touch down with such a precise speed control will secure 3 point touch down with minimum kinetic energy, easily absorbed by the wheel brakes.” With respect - Mirek Zalewski.
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