Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by apollo11 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:57 pm

Jim under his avatar it goes "engine started" That means he will shortly be barreling down the runway to meet you for that Ale or 6 ...
Straighten up and fly right!
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by jimdavis » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:31 pm

apollo11 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:57 pm
Jim under his avatar it goes "engine started" That means he will shortly be barreling down the runway to meet you for that Ale or 6 ...
Thanks Apollo - you always see the best in situations! :D

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by apollo11 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:34 pm

:lol: Thank you Jim
Straighten up and fly right!
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Raffles » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:14 pm

Have you folks seen this? If it has been posted already , mods, please delete

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by C Africa » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:20 am

What I found interesting is the fact that the crew didn't know about the Notam that Pilanesberg was closed. Neither did the Tower and it seems neither did Johannesburg Information where the flight plan was logged.

So now I wonder, mmmmm. Do you think that MAYBE someone will conclude that the CAA's system of notifications stinks and needs some serious attention????


C
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by GavinT » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:46 am

I’ve seen a few posts trying to blame the engineer. Just remember. Firstly in his current state he can’t defend himself. Secondly he sat there to manage and fine tune what are old and sensitive engines and systems, this he did under the command of the captain. He would have done as instructed by the captain not his own thing. His purpose was to lower work load under the captains instruction. What ever the captain wanted he would have given him taking care of the actions leaving the captain free to think and fly. That engine would have been nursed around that far only because of him. Not despite him. The problem comes in that no decision making occurred what so ever. There was no instruction to him as to what to do with the engines from the captain and flying pilot. In such a case the engineer did what he was there for. He looked after the engines waiting for further instruction.
The suggestions that the captain was blindly sitting there in hope that the engineer looks after the scenario on his own accord is preposterous.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by cage » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:55 am

No one is blaming the lame but his presence in the cockpit as an unofficial crew member would have been an unnecessary complication during a difficult time as would the unnamed 4th person.
Having unclear roles and tasks is how people end up a statistic.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by GavinT » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:05 am

cage wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:55 am
No one is blaming the lame but his presence in the cockpit as an unofficial crew member would have been an unnecessary complication during a difficult time as would the unnamed 4th person.
Having unclear roles and tasks is how people end up a statistic.
You mean like the case of the DC10 from United Airlines who against normal SOP used three crew members to fly the plane after a hydraulic failure?

But you are correct about unclear roles and tasks. There was no captain in the cockpit who took control of the scenario.
Last edited by GavinT on Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by liaan » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:06 am

cage wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:55 am
No one is blaming the lame but his presence in the cockpit as an unofficial crew member would have been an unnecessary complication during a difficult time as would the unnamed 4th person.
Having unclear roles and tasks is how people end up a statistic.
Most aviation rules and regs was written in blood … This time a few of those will underlined in blood.

Hopefully people can learn from this .. follow the rules, although they are often a pain in the @$# .. they there for reason.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Jolley Roger » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:07 am

C Africa wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:20 am
What I found interesting is the fact that the crew didn't know about the Notam that Pilanesberg was closed. Neither did the Tower and it seems neither did Johannesburg Information where the flight plan was logged.
C
I think it was previously mentioned, but they were not planning on landing at FAPN, just overfly and return to base.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by GavinT » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:16 am

his presence in the cockpit as an unofficial crew member would have been an unnecessary complication
Totally wrong. He had extensive experience on radial engines. Specifically R2800’s. In fact he had over 10 years experience not flying Convairs, but that exact one, BRV. I am certain his contribution would have been more than the copilots who wasn’t even rated.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by liaan » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:22 am

GavinT wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:16 am
his presence in the cockpit as an unofficial crew member would have been an unnecessary complication
Totally wrong. He had extensive experience on radial engines. Specifically R2800’s. In fact he had over 10 years experience not flying Convairs, but that exact one, BRV. I am certain his contribution would have been more than the copilots who wasn’t even rated.
Think the point was that there was to many people in the cockpit, and everyone was maybe assuming the other is fixing the issue. Normal ops in this aircraft is 2 up front and those 2 is responsible for sorting out everything, even if its calling someone else to assist in sorting it out.

Hopefully in the final report the preflight briefing will be included clearing up why there was 4 people in the cockpit and who was in charge of the engines.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Bront » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:42 am

Yeah, plenty of double standards on here. Like someone said, if it was a couple of 1000 hour okes they would have been crucified. Or if they had flown low somewhere!

I said right from the start that I thought this was a CRM issue.

And seeing as you asked, let me tell you what I would have done. Assuming I even took off and that's doubtful, seeing as there were many reasons not to. The second the guy in the back or the control tower told me I was on fire, I would have whipped that thing around and pointed it at the closest runway. Once I was pointing at the runway I would have identified the burning engine and told the engineer to feather it, shut it down and activate the fire system. (I know it should have been the copilots job but he isn't rated and I've got an engineer sitting right there.) I would have got that plane back on the ground as fast as humanly possible. And I would have been watching that engine out my window like a hawk, in case I didn't think we could make the runway and then I would have stuck it anywhere I could.

Fire scares the <<moderated - language>> out of me and there is no way in hell I am going to do a bloody great big circuit with a burning engine. The very least I would expect any pilot to do is shut down and fight a burning engine. Me, I'm going to do that but my priority would be getting back on the ground and I would break every rule in the book to achieve that.

I realizes they were under a lot of pressure but the ability to say no comes with maturity and experience, which these guys should have had plenty of. Their list of errors is staggering. Some of you want to continue to praise them for only killing one of them in the crash because you think they did a great job of the crash. That's just rubbish! They were along for the ride by the time they went into that building and it's only because Lady Luck finally decided to give them a break.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by HJK 414 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:09 am

Oh dear ......... #-o
Perigrine - some are simply past "education".

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by vildwillie » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:42 am

HJK 414 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:09 am
Oh dear ......... #-o
Perigrine - some are simply past "education".

JK
JK that is a little unfair? Everyone has an opinion and we should not discourage that, normally your comments are very neutral.

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