Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by MadMacs » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:44 am

Ugly Duckling wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:35 pm
rare bird wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:36 pm
thanks, Paul. nice video. any idea what the fuel consumption was?
R2800 was also installed in the P47. 275 US gallons = 1041 litres per hour per engine at takeoff power.
Did my apprenticeship and wrote my tradetest on those :D
I'm not old, I'm 18 with 47 years of experience :D
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:48 pm

cage wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:38 am
Jim, I don't think everyone will be convinced that it was an intentional decision to not cut the engine.
The transcripts indicate that they weren't sure which engine was actually on fire, they didn't even know if the gear was up or not.
My speculation. I think its rubbish that they did not know if the gear was up or down. I think that due to their proximity to the departure field and lack of altitude, they chose to keep the burning engine alive to eke out every bit of power at their disposal given that they had 2100 litres of fuel onboard and 17 pax and, as pointed out, the engine had not failed completely.

These old propliners are a handful when things go wrong. They do not have a fancy annunciator panel that diagnoses and highlights faults. Knowledge of how the systems integrate and how a failure of one system affects another is what separates a good propliner pilot from a great one.

It's easy to judge these pilots when you have zero propliner entries in your logbook and are comparing the operation of these aircraft to modern-day turboprops and even jets. The fact of the matter is that they fall into a category of their own and unless you have first-hand experience flying these old beauties you will not quite grasp their peculiarities. You cannot apply non-propliner procedures to a propliner, they are just different, from startup to touchdown.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by cage » Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:01 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:48 pm
... I think its rubbish that they did not know if the gear was up or down...
Just going on what was documented from the inflight recording
The GoPro video recording further showed that the PF was not sure if they had retracted the landing gears as he could be heard asking the PM if the gears were retracted or not. Moreover, the video recording revealed that although the crew was informed of the left engine being on fire by one of the passengers, they were still not sure which engine was on fire
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:19 pm

cage wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:01 pm
Airwayfreak wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:48 pm
... I think its rubbish that they did not know if the gear was up or down...
Just going on what was documented from the inflight recording
The GoPro video recording further showed that the PF was not sure if they had retracted the landing gears as he could be heard asking the PM if the gears were retracted or not. Moreover, the video recording revealed that although the crew was informed of the left engine being on fire by one of the passengers, they were still not sure which engine was on fire
Simple verification. I see nothing wrong with the PF asking this question given what could only have been an intense focus on flying a failing machine. His mind was probably on keeping the airframe as clean as possible.

Not being sure if they had retracted the undercarriage is vastly different from not KNOWING if undercarriage was up or down.

Also being told by a passenger that an engine is on fire needs verification first. A partially failed radial engine, especially supercharged is quite difficult to diagnose from instruments only, so my sympathies still are with the crew.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by cage » Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:55 pm

Fair point AWF, thanks for a differing perspective.
Must say, my sympathies are with the family of the guy on the ground that was killed, he had nothing to do with this, and for his sake (and the other ground injuries) I hope that people are (fairly) held accountable. There certainly seems cause.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by jimdavis » Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:16 pm

cage wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:55 pm
Fair point AWF, thanks for a differing perspective.
Must say, my sympathies are with the family of the guy on the ground that was killed, he had nothing to do with this, and for his sake (and the other ground injuries) I hope that people are (fairly) held accountable. There certainly seems cause.
I am with you Cage, but I think it's more important that his family are fairly compensated - if you can put a financial compensation on a human life.

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:23 pm

cage wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:55 pm
Fair point AWF, thanks for a differing perspective.
Must say, my sympathies are with the family of the guy on the ground that was killed, he had nothing to do with this, and for his sake (and the other ground injuries) I hope that people are (fairly) held accountable. There certainly seems cause.
Oh, my sympathies are with all those families affected as well and corrective action must be taken. But three humans were placed in a situation that is most unenviable. Disregarding the legal stuff for a moment, and I think we will all agree that there was serious disregard in this case, I think that the pilots and engineer were doing their best.

Given the same scenario, I think I would have also opted to keep the failing engine alive. Shutting down an engine with that many pax on board, lots of fuel and minimum altitude comes with some serious risks in these old aircraft. Forget about certification criteria when it comes to a 50 - 60 year old design.

Had that engine been shutdown earlier, the crash would have happened sooner, and with more devastating effect, but that is my opinion only.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by roadrunner » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:16 pm

Is it not important to know the area that you are going to fly to or in .Freeway next to N1 was there as well as the N4 .Trying to nurse the plane around the circuit reduced theire chances as well as people on the ground .Imagine they went into the houses .Im just asking seems like if you dont plan ahead you plan to fail.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by Rockwell » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:01 pm

Well they managed to travel 17km until point of impact. That is also the distance from 11 threshold to Bundu field straight ahead that has a 1000m. No need to turn and same wind conditions as per take-off.
Probable that the crew didn't know they had that option..
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:24 pm

Fire and Rescue Services in the area of Wonderboom are better equipped to deal with aircraft accidents.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by Segg » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:39 pm

So today I was at the Aviodrome Museum in Lelystad in the Netherlands - the final destination for this aircraft - there was a section dedicated to it
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by moosp » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:28 am

Thanks for that segg, very interesting. I am glad the museum has put this up as a kind of memorial to the accident.

On a visit to SYD in December the co-pilot's health is little changed, but he is being moved to an intensive nursing facility rather than the hospital, which is a more attractive place in case he can assimilate his environment.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by moosp » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:32 am

Sad to report that the co-pilot on this flight passed away 25th March. He had been in a persistent vegetative state since the accident.

I know no more details but if I hear anything of useful public knowledge I shall pass it on.

Be careful out there.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:01 pm

moosp wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:32 am
Sad to report that the co-pilot on this flight passed away 25th March. He had been in a persistent vegetative state since the accident.

I know no more details but if I hear anything of useful public knowledge I shall pass it on.

Be careful out there.
Rest in peace
Condolences to family and friends
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