Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

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ACAS-RA
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by ACAS-RA » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:32 am

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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Spoke Eagle » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:07 am

This is down right frightening! If the system wants to it will change the stick forces to guide the pilot! How on earth is the poor soul to know what the aircraft is doing if some "spook" is pulling and pushing on the controls all the time.
It used to be fun to push the control colomn with your left foot in a Tripacer and watch the pilot flying trim up and up and up then suddenly taking your foot off and Zzzoooom up he goes. That was until we nearly took the wings off one day. I'm suddenly very uncomfortable to fly commercially.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:28 pm

posted by Sias Moller on Fly Africa facebook page
Lion Air B737 Max - MCAS trimmed down, Pilot trimmed up -> 26 times!
25th time, MCAS got the stab to the nose down limit. Pilot seemed to have followed prescribed Runaway Stabilizer actions. Beginning with Electric trim on yoke. Then going manual trim till the end while also pulling back on the yoke. The MCAS seems to continue to operate during the whole flight.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by HJK 414 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:09 pm

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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:48 pm

The system has at its disposal
Attitude/vertical speed/airspeed/thrust setting and AoA (erroneous)...
Surely (not you Shirley), it could be programmed to figure out which indication is flawed?
Also, that repeated downward trimming looks like a darn stupid algorithm to just go on and on and on with no alternative strategy?
I think Boeing should be hanging their heads in shame (and I hope they read Avcom!)
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Volo » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:29 pm

What I wouls like to know is what has been the miracle cure that they have allowed the aircraft to remain in service or was it simply a case of telling the pilots which buttons to press that was not in any of the previous notes on the subject.?
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:20 am

I am not convinced MCAS is the sole cause of this tragedy. MCAS does not work when the AP is deactivated, nor does it work until flap retraction. Cut off switches are a memory items and there are visual cues for MCAS operation.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Selcal » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:02 am

Airwayfreak wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:20 am
I am not convinced MCAS is the sole cause of this tragedy. MCAS does not work when the AP is deactivated, nor does it work until flap retraction. Cut off switches are a memory items and there are visual cues for MCAS operation.
Sorry maybe I’m just slow on a Sunday, my understanding was MCAS was only operational when hand flying so when AP was disconnected?
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:42 am

Selcal wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:02 am
Airwayfreak wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:20 am
I am not convinced MCAS is the sole cause of this tragedy. MCAS does not work when the AP is deactivated, nor does it work until flap retraction. Cut off switches are a memory items and there are visual cues for MCAS operation.
Sorry maybe I’m just slow on a Sunday, my understanding was MCAS was only operational when hand flying so when AP was disconnected?
Sorry. Its a slow Sunday for me. Meant to say MCAS works when AP is deactivated.

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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Breytie » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:53 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:42 am
Selcal wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:02 am
Airwayfreak wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:20 am
I am not convinced MCAS is the sole cause of this tragedy. MCAS does not work when the AP is deactivated, nor does it work until flap retraction. Cut off switches are a memory items and there are visual cues for MCAS operation.
Sorry maybe I’m just slow on a Sunday, my understanding was MCAS was only operational when hand flying so when AP was disconnected?
Sorry. Its a slow Sunday for me. Meant to say MCAS works when AP is deactivated.

My Engels gets beyond me sometimes.
Herein lies the problem: The pilots are used to aircraft systems acting in a certain way. Hitting AP and AT DISCONNECTs should stop it "interfering" and adjusting things.
If you then approach a stall, you have all kinds of bells, whistles and voices warning you about the fact, then the stickshaker kicks in with a hell of a vibration that you can see, hear and feel. Only if you do not get things fixed up, the stick pusher starts physically pushing the yoke forward. If needed, you can overpower the pusher fairly easily. But by that time you know exactly what is happening and why. If the systems are at fault, you have a good idea what the problem is and have procedures to cope with it and you have practiced it in the simulator.
When the MCAS kicked in, you do not know it exists, you do not know it is fitted, it does so when you do not expect any automated systems to be active, it a tissues no warnings of any kind, it does not act like typical runaway trim, it has no limit how far it can adjusts the trim so it can push the trim so far down that it is impossible to keep the plane from going into an uncontrollable dive.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Volo » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:16 pm

Breytie wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:53 pm
Airwayfreak wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:42 am
Selcal wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:02 am


Sorry maybe I’m just slow on a Sunday, my understanding was MCAS was only operational when hand flying so when AP was disconnected?
Sorry. Its a slow Sunday for me. Meant to say MCAS works when AP is deactivated.

My Engels gets beyond me sometimes.
Herein lies the problem: The pilots are used to aircraft systems acting in a certain way. Hitting AP and AT DISCONNECTs should stop it "interfering" and adjusting things.
If you then approach a stall, you have all kinds of bells, whistles and voices warning you about the fact, then the stickshaker kicks in with a hell of a vibration that you can see, hear and feel. Only if you do not get things fixed up, the stick pusher starts physically pushing the yoke forward. If needed, you can overpower the pusher fairly easily. But by that time you know exactly what is happening and why. If the systems are at fault, you have a good idea what the problem is and have procedures to cope with it and you have practiced it in the simulator.
When the MCAS kicked in, you do not know it exists, you do not know it is fitted, it does so when you do not expect any automated systems to be active, it a tissues no warnings of any kind, it does not act like typical runaway trim, it has no limit how far it can adjusts the trim so it can push the trim so far down that it is impossible to keep the plane from going into an uncontrollable dive.
If what you say is halfway true I am Gobsmacked that these aircraft can be allowed to fly without every pilot flying them having to undergo a training schedule to handle them in the first place and secondly why are the systems not being dismantled or made inoperative ?
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:52 am

Volo wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:16 pm

If what you say is halfway true I am Gobsmacked that these aircraft can be allowed to fly without every pilot flying them having to undergo a training schedule to handle them in the first place and secondly why are the systems not being dismantled or made inoperative ?
Die slim manne met die wit jasse en dik brille at Boeing decided that MCAS requires level "B" pilot training. Level "B" training is defined by the FAA as follows:

Level B Training. Level B training is applicable to related aircraft with system or procedure differences that can adequately be addressed through aided instruction. At level B,aided instruction is appropriate to ensure pilot understanding, emphasize issues, provide a standardized method of presenting material, or aid retention of material following training.Level B aided instruction can utilize slide/tape presentations, computer based tutorial instruction,stand-up lectures, or video tapes.’

So if companies did not include MCAS training in their schedules, I think the liability becomes debatable if Boeing indeed determined MCAS training to be pitched at Level B training. I do not for one minute believe that Boeing would have kept customers in the dark totally about MCAS.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by heisan » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:43 am

Airwayfreak wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:52 am
Volo wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:16 pm

If what you say is halfway true I am Gobsmacked that these aircraft can be allowed to fly without every pilot flying them having to undergo a training schedule to handle them in the first place and secondly why are the systems not being dismantled or made inoperative ?
Die slim manne met die wit jasse en dik brille at Boeing decided that MCAS requires level "B" pilot training. Level "B" training is defined by the FAA as follows:

Level B Training. Level B training is applicable to related aircraft with system or procedure differences that can adequately be addressed through aided instruction. At level B,aided instruction is appropriate to ensure pilot understanding, emphasize issues, provide a standardized method of presenting material, or aid retention of material following training.Level B aided instruction can utilize slide/tape presentations, computer based tutorial instruction,stand-up lectures, or video tapes.’

So if companies did not include MCAS training in their schedules, I think the liability becomes debatable if Boeing indeed determined MCAS training to be pitched at Level B training. I do not for one minute believe that Boeing would have kept customers in the dark totally about MCAS.
From the actual FAA and Boeing releases, they admitted that there was no mention of MCAS in the differences training material. Boeing's reasoning being that a failure would be indistinguishable from a 'normal' trim runaway, and the resolution procedure is the same too - so why complicate things by adding separate training for it...
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:23 am

heisan wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:43 am

From the actual FAA and Boeing releases, they admitted that there was no mention of MCAS in the differences training material. Boeing's reasoning being that a failure would be indistinguishable from a 'normal' trim runaway, and the resolution procedure is the same too - so why complicate things by adding separate training for it...
I am not convinced that this is true because United Airlines received MCAS training when they took delivery of their MAX's. Very strange indeed.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Sanddweller » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:28 am

I am Max rated, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that there was nothing in the Max Fcom mentioning the MACS and there was nothing in the differences course we did..

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