Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

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driftwood
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by driftwood » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:01 pm

I have the Initial report, I can't find a way to upload a PDF here, or at least it blocks me if I try attatch. If anyone wants it I'll happily email it to you.

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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:55 am

driftwood wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:01 pm
I have the Initial report, I can't find a way to upload a PDF here, or at least it blocks me if I try attatch. If anyone wants it I'll happily email it to you.

Mike
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by liaan » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:42 pm

Romeo E.T. wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:55 am
driftwood wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:01 pm
I have the Initial report, I can't find a way to upload a PDF here, or at least it blocks me if I try attatch. If anyone wants it I'll happily email it to you.

Mike
Pieter Rousow left a link to download it on the FlyAfrica Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/download/previ ... 0197283862

See from charts that fuel flow and egt goes up just before last dive. Will they go up due to dive or only if throttles are opened?
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by jimdavis » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:47 pm

Is there some way of seeing it for us non-farcebookists?

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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by ACAS-RA » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:10 pm

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jimdavis
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by jimdavis » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:17 pm

ACAS-RA wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:10 pm
Prelim report as requested:

http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_avia ... Report.pdf
Thank you, darling. :)

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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by cxp228ec » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:46 am

MadMacs wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:57 pm
richard C wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:20 pm
You would have thought:

Pilot looks at very busy fault log describing issues with airspeed, AoA and trim, and thinks to himself - best I keep an eye out for that.

In other words, he departs knowing that his steed had experienced several of these failures in the preceding days, so surely there was no way on earth that he was scratching his head wondering what was going on - he already knew.

The previous pilots executed the memory item checklist to combat the nose-down trim - were these pilots negligent in not preparing for such an occurrence ? Did they not check the maintenance log ? Did the engineer not give them a heads-up ? In light of the faults logged, did they not brief for such failures just in case ?
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the previous pilots had the same problem.
I think the consensus is the previous crew did have the same issues but correctly executed the memory check items.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by GRAHAMW » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:59 am

This was probably inevitable:

Boeing sued for wrongful death in Lion Air crash

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... air-crash/
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Darren » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:48 pm

Thank you to all the airline pilots relating their experience with the specific procedures and systems, it has been most interesting.

Boeing will have, and deserve, consequences for choosing not to inform airlines and pilots about the MCAS. It looks from the outside like sales and marketing were able to overrule engineering and safety in order to avoid a costlier type conversion, which is something that should never happen on any safety-critical system.

I don't believe at all that automation itself is the problem in cases like this; rather the problem is the transition of control between automated and manual control and need for aircrew to be able to have an accurate mental model at all times of what mode the aircraft is in and what outputs to expect for any given inputs.

As others have said, you have to stay ahead of the aircraft in all ways. Back before automated systems that meant staying ahead of where the aircraft was mechanically and aerodynamically, avoiding situations where you fell behind the input/output cycle and began reacting to a situation too slowly to be able to control it. All that's changed now is that a pilot no longer needs to dedicate crucial focus to a whole bunch of isolated & discrete signals and indicators, allowing them to extend focus to complex navigation procedures and understanding the system as a whole.

In general, modern aircraft handle automation, information presentation (and thus the sustaining of mental models), and transition of control exceptionally well. This is why flying has become exponentially safer since the days of steam gauges, even as the number of scheduled flights continues to increase. Incidents like this, and AF447, are anomalies which are highlighting some of the boundary conditions that exist when transitioning control. They're going to lead to better training and better systems for making sure aircrew know what the systems are doing, not to less automation.

Looking at the initial report, Lion Air's maintenance procedures are flawed and it seems they may need to perform better aircrew training. They have, it seems, grown too big too quickly and have never adapted their internal safety culture to scale with the company.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by kudu177 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:24 pm

Darren wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:48 pm
Thank you to all the airline pilots relating their experience with the specific procedures and systems, it has been most interesting.

Boeing will have, and deserve, consequences for choosing not to inform airlines and pilots about the MCAS. It looks from the outside like sales and marketing were able to overrule engineering and safety in order to avoid a costlier type conversion, which is something that should never happen on any safety-critical system.

I don't believe at all that automation itself is the problem in cases like this; rather the problem is the transition of control between automated and manual control and need for aircrew to be able to have an accurate mental model at all times of what mode the aircraft is in and what outputs to expect for any given inputs.

As others have said, you have to stay ahead of the aircraft in all ways. Back before automated systems that meant staying ahead of where the aircraft was mechanically and aerodynamically, avoiding situations where you fell behind the input/output cycle and began reacting to a situation too slowly to be able to control it. All that's changed now is that a pilot no longer needs to dedicate crucial focus to a whole bunch of isolated & discrete signals and indicators, allowing them to extend focus to complex navigation procedures and understanding the system as a whole.

In general, modern aircraft handle automation, information presentation (and thus the sustaining of mental models), and transition of control exceptionally well. This is why flying has become exponentially safer since the days of steam gauges, even as the number of scheduled flights continues to increase. Incidents like this, and AF447, are anomalies which are highlighting some of the boundary conditions that exist when transitioning control. They're going to lead to better training and better systems for making sure aircrew know what the systems are doing, not to less automation.

Looking at the initial report, Lion Air's maintenance procedures are flawed and it seems they may need to perform better aircrew training. They have, it seems, grown too big too quickly and have never adapted their internal safety culture to scale with the company.
Excellent, rational and well-considered post, Darren. =D>
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by jimdavis » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:22 pm

For me, this whole thing has highlighted where we are in the development of the pilot/aircraft interface.

Many will remember the days of the 'radiogram' - a polished piece of solid furniture that produced reliable, but unsophisticated, music from the radio and the gramophone. This was the Dakota of music.

Next the had the hi-fi system. You had to really know your stuff to get the best music reproduction. You bought a bulky amp and two pre-amps. Then you chose the very best turntable, and went to another store to buy the finest speakers. And once you had got everything, you needed a sound expert to make sure they were all compatible, and to tell you where to install it in your house. Finally, when it was all hooked, up you got the superb quality music - but only from time to time. In between, something would not work properly, perhaps the stylus, or the woofer, or the tweeter, and you would tear your hair out in frustration. If you didn't understand all the technology you simply didn't get good or reliable music. This was the Airbus/fly-by-wire/Boeing Max era. You had better understand the technology or you could wind up in trouble

Now we have shirt-pocket size cell phones and tiny earpieces that produce music that is far superior to any previous system.. And it can be operated with two buttons, by anyone with half a brain.

I suspect that we will eventually have aeroplanes that are equivalent to this.

Folks will look back on the present age of aviation in the same we look back on the age of the hi-fy system... and shudder!

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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by happyskipper » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:47 pm

I agree, Jim. Noone wants to fly as pax in an unmanned aircraft, because the technology is not (yet) foolproof - so we are in a never-never land where automation is being developed that could, possibly, allow 100% reliability - but we are not quite there yet..... so the solution is a mix of old and new school methods. Unfortunately, the mix is not quite right, and automation that is not 100% understood by the human operator is causing issues.
The solution? We need to revert to the full old-school method, relying on pilots, as opposed to operators, until such time as the automation is foolproof, and proved to be foolproof.....
Anything else is simply gambling, with passenger's lives the unfortunate stakes.....
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Jack Welles » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:23 am

Sounds like it's going to end up as - if experience problem "A" press button "A", if experience problem "B" press button "B" ...
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by jimdavis » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:04 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:23 am
Sounds like it's going to end up as - if experience problem "A" press button "A", if experience problem "B" press button "B" ...
I think that's where it is at the moment. But there is no button for experience A+B on a Thursday.

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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX crashed

Unread post by Darren » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:43 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:23 am
Sounds like it's going to end up as - if experience problem "A" press button "A", if experience problem "B" press button "B" ...
Isn't that just what checklists and procedures are now?

There's value in those, but, as always, the key aspect will always be in the creation and sustainment of accurate mental models of what the aircraft is doing and why, along with ever-improved CRM to ensure that mental model is shared and that changes to it are accurately and rapidly communicated. In a way this is no different to a surgical team or those running other safety-critical systems, but aircrew are somewhat unique in how frighteningly alone they are in emergencies.

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