Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

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JimmyZ
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Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by JimmyZ » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:30 pm

Hello everyone.

I want to gather opinions and ideas about aerial maneuvers (general aviation, PPL fixed wing) and emergencies to practice with an instructor that relates to aircraft handling.

The goal is to become a safer pilot and have a better chance of successfully dealing with general emergencies and practicing to avoid certain situations, as well as getting a better idea of the limitations of the aircraft type I fly. I don't want to be a pilot that only ever flies from A to B and only simulates emergencies come the mandatory flight test or check ride to renew my PPL. I want to get ahead of the minimum-required training curve.

I am also explicitly NOT referring to getting other ratings and endorsements (gliders, aerobatic rating, tail wheel rating, night rating etc.) that makes one a safer pilot - which I want to do / will do, but is outside of the scope of this question.

Here's my list so far of maneuvers and emergencies I think I need to practice:

-Glide approaches
-Engine out procedures
-Power-on stalls
-Uneven wings-attitude stalls - simulating the base to final leg stall. Since this is generally an unrecoverable situation, the practicing is to better know the aircraft's limitations.
-Short-field landings - once again to get more acquainted with aircraft limitations.

I've done power-off stalls (recovery before stall develops), steep turns, simulated precautionary landings, simulated emergency landings the most frequently during training, but I will add them if there is argument for it.

*I don't know the correct names for some of these maneuvers.

I've obviously done a lot of these before which was required for getting my PPL, but I'm guessing one cannot really do too much simulated engine out procedures, as an example. I also don't think I've ever done a simulated engine fire procedure, so would there be benefit in simulating it?

I'm aware I can ask an instructor what to practice or to lead such a training session, but I'd like to propose what I want to do based on actual thought that was put into it, and possibly do maneuvers that doesn't form part of the general flight test / check ride, if there is merit in doing it.

What else do I have not listed that one simply cannot practice too much, or wasn't covered in PPL training?
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by Bartvdb » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:38 pm

In my humble opinion, CC Pocock is the best option, if you have the means. He does training with your own aircraft. My money was well spent.
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by happyskipper » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:52 pm

Bartvdb wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:38 pm
In my humble opinion, CC Pocock is the best option, if you have the means. He does training with your own aircraft. My money was well spent.
From CC's FB page: He will be in SA soon.....
https://www.facebook.com/cc.pocock
I am now scheduling Advanced Bush and Mountain Flying courses in Barberton, South Africa between 23 and 31 January 2019.

There are only 6 slots available!
Please see website Bush-air.com for more info on the courses. ... See More
BUSH AIR
December 24, 2018 at 8:43 AM ·

Bush and Mountain Flying Courses in Barberton, South Africa. 23 - 31 January 2019.
Anyone interested please send email to cc@bush-air.com (Do not send FB message!)
Check website for more info www.bush-air.com/school.htm
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:27 pm

JimmyZ wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:30 pm

-Glide approaches
-Engine out procedures
-Power-on stalls
-Uneven wings-attitude stalls - simulating the base to final leg stall. Since this is generally an unrecoverable situation, the practicing is to better know the aircraft's limitations.
-Short-field landings - once again to get more acquainted with aircraft limitations.
I am not quite sure why you are calling these "advanced" manourvres. Is CC an instructor ? Just asking
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by Dragon » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:43 pm

JimmyZ wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:30 pm
Hello everyone.

I want to gather opinions and ideas about aerial maneuvers (general aviation, PPL fixed wing) and emergencies to practice with an instructor that relates to aircraft handling

What else do I have not listed that one simply cannot practice too much, or wasn't covered in PPL training?
Not just stalls from different setups but incipient spins or full spin if aircraft type will allow.

I might get crucified for this one but with the right instructor you should be shown the turnback performance of your specific aircraft and then your specific skillset, so that you know exactly what can and cannot be done, and so you are never tempted to explore the envelope and attempt the impossible if one day you are ever put in a tempting position.

Strong x-wind landings. Up to the aircraft limit.

I might get crucified for this one as well, and it should almost be treated as a course on its own, but a responsible introduction to low level flying. Everyone ends up doing it sooner or later, usually without having a clue what they are doing and not knowing what they don't know, so why not teach them responsibly starting at a responsible and appropriate height- say 1500agl - and stepping down as they progress. This way folk can learn to respect the dangers and the low level environment before stumbling into it on their own, and learning to recognise their own limitations early on.

Formation flying should only be learned in a structured course, but put it on your to do list for later because it's another thing everyone winds up doing without understanding.
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by moosp » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:56 am

Dragon, you won't get crucified by me for those suggestions. The turn back and low level flying are vital aviation knowledge, to be taught at THE APPROPRIATE STAGE of experience.

I was taught both by a brilliant instructor and learned the dangers and possibilities of both. They can be both life savers and killers depending on how and when you use the techniques.

Jimmy, you are going about this the right way with a good sense of airmanship. Instructors on here and in the flight schools will be only too pleased to develop your skill set, it is what gives them a warm fuzzy feeling at the end of the day.
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by rare bird » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:36 am

cross wind landings , but Dragon already mentioned that. What I would say is to land at different fields eg go to George - usually nice crosswinds there and also a nice RWY for practicing EFATO ( not sure how lekker Kitty Hawk is for Efato?)
+1 for the other comments by Dragon.
@ awyFreak - no, CC is not an instructor, and does not pretend to be - more of a "coach" - but he sure will help someone who has just got his PPL (and a few others too?!)
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by JimmyZ » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:34 am

Thanks for the replies.

I myself (like most, I'm sure) was drilled to in case of EFATO to immediately lower the nose to maintain airspeed and land as straight ahead as obstacles allow. The height AGL at which it happens will dictate how much time there is for troubleshooting.

A friend of mine's instructor thought him that if you turn back, you WILL die. It was drilled in with those words every time. Obviously it's not strictly true, because it has been done successfully (very few) and is all about keeping airspeed above stall. The tighter the turn, the more airspeed is needed not to stall (which is a simplification, but factually correct). Still, I try not to plant any seed in my mind that it is possible, especially not at my current experience level.
I'd be eager to hear uncle Jim's opinion about the "if you turn back, you WILL die" training.

I've personally not had the desire to fly low level. But then again, one may be unexpectedly forced by down by weather, so I guess not a bad thing to be prepared for.

As for crosswind landings, I do plenty of them, but I've not been at the aircraft limit. Will be good to get closer to and possibly up to that limit with an instructor.
Airwayfreak wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:27 pm
JimmyZ wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:30 pm

-Glide approaches
-Engine out procedures
-Power-on stalls
-Uneven wings-attitude stalls - simulating the base to final leg stall. Since this is generally an unrecoverable situation, the practicing is to better know the aircraft's limitations.
-Short-field landings - once again to get more acquainted with aircraft limitations.
I am not quite sure why you are calling these "advanced" manourvres. Is CC an instructor ? Just asking
Not calling these specific maneuvers advanced. And with "advanced" I meant relative to what is done in PPL training. Plenty suggestions here cover airwork / maneuvers not covered in PPL training, which is what I was after.
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by rare bird » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:30 am

one of the most tricky situations I had to deal with was engine failure on final approach.
there was no time for fault finding (I would not have found the fault anyway, in that case) The temptation to stretch the glide is immense.
One of my instructors used to tell me "keep the wings level and fly her - even if you have to fly her into a brick wall". when he first told me that I thought he was a <moderated>, but after seeing a few accident cases, I have come around to realising he was correct. Your chances are still best to fly the a/c as long as possible and to reduce speed as much as possible (Flare) at touchdown, (wings level) even if it doesn't look like a rwy.
very important: remember to pop the door open before doing a forced lob, and also switch all electrics and magnetos off.


In preparing for emergencies (since that was part of your question)
1. tell someone where you are going, and tell them if you change your plans (nothing wrong with phoning them overhead / abeam a town where you cal get cellphone reception, and telling them, or, on the radio, if you can contact ATNS and update your flight plan)
(also give someone - like next of kin - your key for location finding on your cellphone.)
2. make sure the basic first aid kit in your a/c is useful - apart from the legally required stuff. always take a small bottle of clean water with.
3. look at your a/c and see where fuel tanks & pipes are - where are they most likely to rupture. is there anything you can do? (obviously depends on if it is NTCA) eg my first a/c had old rubber hoses which ran next to the seat. I was able to change those to a better grade fuel line with a stopcock. is a 1 kg fire extinguisher going to give you time to exit the a/c? also look at wearing leather gloves. there was a whole debate about nomex flight suits - but somewhere you have to weigh up the risks vs cost & weight.

Canopies can be a problem - they either slide open when you don't want them to, or they are latched so well you can't get them open easily. can the canopy be removed if you are upside down? One of the guys at the club used to use a rope climbers clip to secure his canopy, until he realised there was then no way for someone to assist to open it from the outside.

the point is just to think about / consider some of the scenarios while you have the time. (not just the flying skills - also the practical stuff)
if you ever hear of Santie White giving a talk, do your best to get there
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:54 am

rare bird wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:36 am
c@ awyFreak - no, CC is not an instructor, and does not pretend to be - more of a "coach" - but he sure will help someone who has just got his PPL (and a few others too?!)
CC is an FAA instructor. Don't know about CAA.
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by rare bird » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:12 am

ok, thanks! I am glad he is an instructor then, because he certainly is a good teacher.
I was under the impression he was not because of the whole CAA stupid saga against him, however I think that may also have related to the stuff he teaches not being in a sylabus
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by Dragon » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:09 pm

JimmyZ wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:34 am
Thanks for the replies.

I myself (like most, I'm sure) was drilled to in case of EFATO to immediately lower the nose to maintain airspeed and land as straight ahead as obstacles allow. The height AGL at which it happens will dictate how much time there is for troubleshooting.

A friend of mine's instructor thought him that if you turn back, you WILL die. It was drilled in with those words every time. Obviously it's not strictly true, because it has been done successfully (very few) and is all about keeping airspeed above stall. The tighter the turn, the more airspeed is needed not to stall (which is a simplification, but factually correct). Still, I try not to plant any seed in my mind that it is possible, especially not at my current experience level.
I'd be eager to hear uncle Jim's opinion about the "if you turn back, you WILL die" training
There is nothing wrong with this training esp at an early skill level. The important thing is to stick to it when crunch time comes. What I want to prevent is the pilot with a bit more experience who has engine failure and looks behind him and sees some runways and now thinks it's a good time to see what his aircraft (and himself) can do. That is not the time and not the place. That experimentation needs to be done many months before with an instructor so that you know exactly where the edge is and don't need/won't want to go anywhere near it on crunch day. Crunch day is not for experimentation, it is for relaxed muscle memory the way you have trained it.

Trying a turnback with an instructor is an enlightening experience for different reasons for people at different stages of their career and is a valuable exercise, early in one's career to see how easy it looks and yet how impossible and dangerous it is, and later in one's career to see that in a very small set of circumstances with certain aircraft types and sufficient skill and currency and wind conditions and flight parameters a certain measure of success is actually possible- but I'm obviously only proposing it be entertained by the elite, the margins are narrow and it is obviously just plain safer to advocate that nobody go there at all.

We used to practise them regularly on the Impala at Hoedspruit until a turnback from 190 kts somewhere nearing the end of the runway at 50ft after take off was routine. But remember the Imp is a high energy aircraft that is an excellent glider with great penetration, and we were flying every day so we were super current, even though it was a delicate manoeuvre. If it happened for real it would have been second nature. Clearly this is not going to apply to everyone and every aircraft type esp in unfavorable conditions.
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by rare bird » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:19 pm

there was a debate some time ago about attitude indicators, and flying a turn back on attitude and not on airspeed alone - imo this tends to be an academic "armchair" debate.
I was very thankful to do "proper" full spin training - I would recommend that if possible ( it certainly develops the correct response for your a/c - initially I found I had to consciously "undo" / un-learn the instinct to use ailerons ) and I still remember my first spin being a bit different to what I had expected from the text book & pre-flight briefing (the "cart-wheeling" effect initially gave me a bit of a skrik), but after doing it a few times i actually came to quite enjoy it.

another exercise I found helpful was my instructor would tell me to close my eyes, and then he would put the a/c into an unusual attitude, and then - open eyes and see how quickly I could re-gain situational awareness & recovery.
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by Jean Crous » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:09 pm

If I may chime in, go and do some gliding, it will teach you a whole lot more about energy management. Second to that, if finances allow find a flight school that teaches recovery from unusual attitudes...... :twisted: :twisted: ....aircraft attitudes , not pilot attitudes :lol:
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Re: Advanced maneuvers and practicing emergency procedures

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:46 am

JimmyZ wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:34 am

Not calling these specific maneuvers advanced. And with "advanced" I meant relative to what is done in PPL training. Plenty suggestions here cover airwork / maneuvers not covered in PPL training, which is what I was after.
I must have misunderstood. I read your post title as meaning you are referring to the manoeuvres as being advanced. However even in respect to PPL training, these should be part of PPL training.

I am not sure that you should be training with anybody in a "coaching" context. The instructor rating is there for a reason. If, heaven forbid, anything should go wrong when undergoing "coaching" by a non instructor, I think insurance companies will take a dim view of what can only be described as unauthorised training.

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