Low flying again

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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by spatz » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:33 pm

Suspect a small ads b transmitting device will become mandatory for all so then that will be the drone operators way of notifying pilots difference is his will cost nothing certified a/c will need to spend plenty to comply. we are being pushed to get something like this over here https://uavionix.com/products/skyecho/ for all small aircraft , so expect it to come to a place near you ;)
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Hexapilot » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:42 pm

heisan wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:01 pm
E816 wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:52 am
WRT to drones, lets say there was an accident between a drone and a low flying helicopter, over a deserted beach, so both aircraft flying legally. Who would be liable? I'm thinking the drone, as the law is pretty clear they should at all time give way to manned aircraft.
Correct - drones are required to look out for, and give way to all manned aircraft at all times.
This is absolutely correct. The drone MUST give way to manned aircraft.
But in reality, manned aircraft at an altitude BELOW 120 meters/400ft are not seen or heard (depending on speed and wind direction) untill it is too late. A drone cannot move that fast out of the way, and the drone pilot might not see or hear the manned aircraft untill the manned aircraft is in his/her field of view. Remember, the drone pilot is looking at his/her drone.
An aircraft approaching, over tree top level at 120kts will be very difficult to hear or be seen untill it is right above the observer.
Just use your common sense and think about this for a bit.
If you fly low, you might encounter a drone, and the drone pilot might not know you are there untill it is too late. ONCE AGAIN, BOTH PILOTS ARE OPERATING LEGGALLY AND WITHIN THEIR RESPECTIVE RULEBOOK.
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Goffel » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:53 pm

The first three photos....only the one, could you say is low level, which was not ILLEGAL..(look where he is)......however the other two were taken from a dune with a telephoto lens which implied that he was supposedly low.

The whole idea was to screw the pilot over that was flying....it was taken by an opposing operator who went out of his way to discredit this pilot and operation.

Plus this was two years ago and had nothing to do with the fires at all.

I have a copy of the video taken by a passenger in the aircraft, which incidentally was not on a paying flight, but a Part 91 social flight.

I can assure you that that flight was completely legal and safe...regardless of what the naysayers say...(and the weather was perfect before Jim asks. :D )....plus this pilot and the passenger both belong to Jims LCC).
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Hexapilot » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:57 pm

Aquila wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:42 am
Hexapilot wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:51 pm
jimdavis wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:17 pm


Hex, pointing out that there are other hazards does nothing to diminish the drone hazard. 8-[

jim
Jim, I get that,
But the reality is that now there are drones as well, and they are NOT going to go away. The drone buissiness brings in a lot more money than private planes, and goverments are not going to legislate them in to extinction.
Also, media is blowing the whole drone scarmongering thing out of proportion, because it is good buissiness.
I am trying to drive home the point that pilots have to think about these things, and maybe think twice before buzzing a nice quiet beach. There might just be some guy wanting to take some happy snaps with his drone, not intending any harm, and flying, according to the law.

I understand that there are pilots getting upset because they now have to share the sky with drones, but the reality is that the majority of the drones are being flown at the most up to their built in 120 meter from start point restriction. Most GA aircraft do not fly below 120 meters from the ground, so a big storm in a teacup is being made over something that in reality is not a problem at all.
Yes, there are idiots behind the controlls of drones, as well as idiots behind the controlls of private planes. Luckilly these two idiots have not been in the same piece of sky yet...
The lack of records clearly state that drones in the sky is really not such a big problem.

I am willing to bet some beer that quite a few posters here have been googling franticly to prove me wrong. I have tried to find reports where drones have downed planes, or caused injury to pilots or passengers of aircraft. None.
There have been three cases of damage to aircraft, but no injuries and the aircraft could be fixed. These aircraft could actually still fly normally after the drone strike. The rest was alledged. So are UFO sightings...

The US NTSB has actually done a study on the probabillity of having a drone taking an aircraft out of the sky, and they concluded that the risk was insignificant.

Some questions:

First of all, could you please post a link to that claimed study by the NTSB? Reason I ask is because at Oshkosh last year NASA had quite a significant display of the possible risks posed by drones and the studies and research they are doing into the mitigation of these risks. So if NASA is spending money on this research I’m assuming they think it is a big enough risk.

Secondly, the rules for drone operations state that a drone should at all times give way to manned aircraft. Therefore in all of the examples you mentioned, the drone did not give way seeing that they collided with a manned aircraft. Therefore the drone has breached the laws it has to operate by. I’m not commenting on the law, I’m just saying what the law is.

Then thirdly, just because no one has been injured in the mentioned collisions doesn’t mean it is not a real risk. Are you really saying that until someone is possibly injured (and I really hope that it never happens), we can just ignore the risk? Also have you considered the costs of the damages sustained by these aircraft in the mentioned collisions? I fully agree that drones are here to stay but now is the time to implement proper ways to integrate them into the current aviation system. Also, the birds vs aircraft debate is silly. For one they occur in nature where aircraft and drones are man made and controlled. And if you really want to play that game, birds were first, manned aircraft second and drones in a very solid third place.

Enjoy your drone but fly it responsibly. Anyway thats what I try to do the few times I have operated one... :wink:
1. My Bad, it was not an NTSB report but a NASA one.
https://utm.arc.nasa.gov/docs/2017-Barr ... 2_ATIO.pdf

2. This is absolutely correct. The drone MUST give way to manned aircraft.
But in reality, manned aircraft at an altitude BELOW 120 meters/400ft are not seen or heard (depending on speed and wind direction) untill it is too late. A drone cannot move that fast out of the way, and the drone pilot might not see or hear the manned aircraft untill the manned aircraft is in his/her field of view. Remember, the drone pilot is looking at his/her drone.
An aircraft approaching, over tree top level at 120kts will be very difficult to hear or be seen untill it is right above the observer.
Just use your common sense and think about this for a bit.
If you fly low, you might encounter a drone, and the drone pilot might not know you are there untill it is too late. ONCE AGAIN, BOTH PILOTS ARE OPERATING LEGGALLY AND WITHIN THEIR RESPECTIVE RULEBOOK.

3. A very low risk. No. Yes, but your chances of birdstrikes are much, much higher. As far as I can see, drones are being implemented in the airspace, lots of rules, restrictions and regulations... Not really, both are a real risk, and you as a pilot should be aware of that, and keep your eyeballs out on stalks if you fly low in uncontrolled airspace, not so silly. No, I don't want to play that game, and uncontrolled airspace is just that, not that birds give a hoot about that, ask Sully.

What I am trying to say, is that if you as a pilot wants to fly below 400ft/120m, you are now entering aispace that might be occupied by drones as well. Keep a good lookout!

Thanks. I am enjoying my drone, and I am flying it well within the rules, and I do keep a lookout for aircraft as well as listen out on an aviation radio for traffic in the area. But not many drone pilots do that...
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Hexapilot » Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:06 pm

The new age....jpg
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Bront » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:12 am

Hexapilot you need to get your hearing tested if you can't hear a low flying helicopter or light aircraft approaching! That excuse is just rubbish.

If you are flying legally at the beach then you can't be higher than the sand dunes or trees on them so 50 to 100 feet max. It would only take a few seconds to descend to a foot or 2 above the beach if you hear an aircraft approaching so saying you can't get out of the way is also rubbish. If that were the case then you have no right to be flying.

Of course one is more likely to hit a bird, after all there are billions of them but in my experience they generally tend to try and get out of your way.

It is your responsibility as a drone pilot to keep out of the way of aircraft, it's as simple as that and if you don't think you can do that then you have no right to be flying.
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Re: Low flying aga

Unread post by Aquila » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:27 am

Hexapilot wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:57 pm

1. My Bad, it was not an NTSB report but a NASA one.
https://utm.arc.nasa.gov/docs/2017-Barr ... 2_ATIO.pdf

2. This is absolutely correct. The drone MUST give way to manned aircraft.
But in reality, manned aircraft at an altitude BELOW 120 meters/400ft are not seen or heard (depending on speed and wind direction) untill it is too late. A drone cannot move that fast out of the way, and the drone pilot might not see or hear the manned aircraft untill the manned aircraft is in his/her field of view. Remember, the drone pilot is looking at his/her drone.
An aircraft approaching, over tree top level at 120kts will be very difficult to hear or be seen untill it is right above the observer.
Just use your common sense and think about this for a bit.
If you fly low, you might encounter a drone, and the drone pilot might not know you are there untill it is too late. ONCE AGAIN, BOTH PILOTS ARE OPERATING LEGGALLY AND WITHIN THEIR RESPECTIVE RULEBOOK.

3. A very low risk. No. Yes, but your chances of birdstrikes are much, much higher. As far as I can see, drones are being implemented in the airspace, lots of rules, restrictions and regulations... Not really, both are a real risk, and you as a pilot should be aware of that, and keep your eyeballs out on stalks if you fly low in uncontrolled airspace, not so silly. No, I don't want to play that game, and uncontrolled airspace is just that, not that birds give a hoot about that, ask Sully.

What I am trying to say, is that if you as a pilot wants to fly below 400ft/120m, you are now entering aispace that might be occupied by drones as well. Keep a good lookout!

Thanks. I am enjoying my drone, and I am flying it well within the rules, and I do keep a lookout for aircraft as well as listen out on an aviation radio for traffic in the area. But not many drone pilots do that...
1. Okay thanks for that, according to that study possible midair collisions are listed as PE-2 in all configurations. PE-2 is listed as Hazardous and Extremely Remote (Unlikely but possible to occur in the life of an aircraft). While the risk assessment may be low, it is still a risk. Should we not strive to mitigate these risks? The problem here is that the drone operator only loses a drone in a possible mid air collision, the manned aircraft has a lot more at stake. Anyway I think that study just shows there are risks and I think proper risk mitigation steps are needed. Could you happily say that you are happy with the current drone operations worldwide and that there are no risks involved to manned aircraft?

2. Yeah I fully understand that if you are flying below 400’ you are operating in legal drone area depending on location etc. The point I’m trying to make is yes both the manned aircraft and drone may be operating legally, however should a collision occur between these two at below 400’ the drone has obviously not given way as the law states and therefore has operated illegally. Once again I’m not talking about the realities and implementation of these laws and if its fair or not. I’m simply saying that that is what the law says. Also I think that in that situation the owner or operator of a R60 million helicopter may not be too happy with the drone operator.

3. Once again the birdstrike argument. You cannot regulate birds, they are natural creatures. They were operating the skies long before manned aircraft. Various risk mitigation procedures are in place that have been learned over many years of bird strikes. They can also possibly avoid a collision. Yes they are a risk but its silly to say that because the birds can do as they please that the skies should be a free for all. In the end the manned aircraft has much more to lose than a drone operator. Therefore risk to occupant should be priority. In the end its the behaviour of drone operators that will determinehow strongly it will be regulated...
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by cage » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:51 am

Bront wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:12 am
Hexapilot you need to get your hearing tested if you can't hear a low flying helicopter or light aircraft approaching! That excuse is just rubbish.

If you are flying legally at the beach then you can't be higher than the sand dunes or trees on them so 50 to 100 feet max. It would only take a few seconds to descend to a foot or 2 above the beach if you hear an aircraft approaching so saying you can't get out of the way is also rubbish. If that were the case then you have no right to be flying.

Of course one is more likely to hit a bird, after all there are billions of them but in my experience they generally tend to try and get out of your way.

It is your responsibility as a drone pilot to keep out of the way of aircraft, it's as simple as that and if you don't think you can do that then you have no right to be flying.
:smt023
Aircraft can be heard coming from quite a distance, while you may not see them, the sound will keep getting louder which should be a good clue.
If anyone claims to not be able to hear them then they really need a hearing test.
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by cage » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:53 am

Hexapilot wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:06 pm
The new age....jpg
you are so right.
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Jack Welles » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:01 am

Goffel wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:53 pm
The first three photos....only the one, could you say is low level, which was not ILLEGAL..(look where he is)......however the other two were taken from a dune with a telephoto lens which implied that he was supposedly low.

The whole idea was to screw the pilot over that was flying....it was taken by an opposing operator who went out of his way to discredit this pilot and operation.

Plus this was two years ago and had nothing to do with the fires at all.

I have a copy of the video taken by a passenger in the aircraft, which incidentally was not on a paying flight, but a Part 91 social flight.

I can assure you that that flight was completely legal and safe...regardless of what the naysayers say...(and the weather was perfect before Jim asks. :D )....plus this pilot and the passenger both belong to Jims LCC).
It's people like you that screw up the fake news crowd's fun :twisted: :lol:
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Hexapilot » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:57 pm

Bront wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:12 am
Hexapilot you need to get your hearing tested if you can't hear a low flying helicopter or light aircraft approaching! That excuse is just rubbish.

If you are flying legally at the beach then you can't be higher than the sand dunes or trees on them so 50 to 100 feet max. It would only take a few seconds to descend to a foot or 2 above the beach if you hear an aircraft approaching so saying you can't get out of the way is also rubbish. If that were the case then you have no right to be flying.

Of course one is more likely to hit a bird, after all there are billions of them but in my experience they generally tend to try and get out of your way.

It is your responsibility as a drone pilot to keep out of the way of aircraft, it's as simple as that and if you don't think you can do that then you have no right to be flying.

Take a chill pill bro.

Add the noise of the waves, a bit of wind and an aircraft coming from down-wind, behind the drone pilot, you are going to have bionic hearing to hear a light aircraft. Helicopters maybe, but not a Rattex powered aircraft with quiet prop and off throttle to lose heigt to get down to low level.
Yes, it is my responsibillity, and yes and when I hear aircraft, I land. As I said, I even have an aviation radio with me, so as soon as I hear aircraft in the area, on the radio, I will land.
But not many drone pilots do that.

I am playing Devil's advocate here, and am deliberately stirring the pot with you guys to try and create awareness to the reality of an increasing amount of drones out there.
I also want to point out that the risks are not nearly as high as the media, and people's perception would make it out to be.
Offcourse we want to minimise the risks, and one incident with a drone is one too many, but by simply trying to argue or wish the drones away is not going to make them go away. They will not go away, in fact they will most probably become more and more. Deal with it. Learn to live with it.
I do agree with what most of you guys are saying, and as a pilot myself, I dread the day that a drone comes through the cocpit, but I think that there is a lot of unjustified animosity towards drone pilots, as the majority of those that I have been in contact with are very well aware of the risks, and do fly safely. Remember, no drone pilot wants his 20K drone destroyed.
I also want to point out that it is EVERYONE'S responsibillity to respect each other in the sky, that belongs to NOBODY but the birds.
If you have the attitude of "I fly my plane where I want, and behold the drone pilot who gets in my way", Good luck to you sport.

Fly safe and keep your eyes peeled, especially if you fly below 400ft over a beach.

I'll stop stirring now... :D
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Jack Welles » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:15 pm

Hexapilot wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:57 pm
but I think that there is a lot of unjustified animosity towards drone pilots, as the majority of those that I have been in contact with are very well aware of the risks, and do fly safely. Remember, no drone pilot wants his 20K drone destroyed. I'll stop stirring now... :D
You're lucky.

In a place like Muizies and along the coast towards Kalk Bay hardly a day goes by that I don't see illegal drone flying :evil:
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by cage » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:25 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:15 pm
Hexapilot wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:57 pm
but I think that there is a lot of unjustified animosity towards drone pilots, as the majority of those that I have been in contact with are very well aware of the risks, and do fly safely. Remember, no drone pilot wants his 20K drone destroyed. I'll stop stirring now... :D
You're lucky.

In a place like Muizies and along the coast towards Kalk Bay hardly a day goes by that I don't see illegal drone flying :evil:
Most of those that post about drones have little knowledge on the regs, like to keep telling everyone else how they should behave, expect to be accommodated and remind us how it is the future, live with it - in equal measures of ignorance and arrogance.

No one here has said anything other than obey the rules, operate safely and be prepared to give right of way.
When full sized aircraft approach fields they too have to give way to other types, it is part of airmanship.
We keep being told how some fly responsibly, yet in most of our experience all we see are people that do not, nor exercise any form of risk assessment or planning before launch.
Until this changes, no one will see any drone other than a danger and a nuisance, which is unfortunate for those that are responsible.
We really shouldn't blame the drone, it's a stupidity problem that has found an outlet.

(I still don't know how an old flyby pic has turned into a dronesturbation).
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by AJW » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:41 pm

cage wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:25 pm
Jack Welles wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:15 pm
Hexapilot wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:57 pm
but I think that there is a lot of unjustified animosity towards drone pilots, as the majority of those that I have been in contact with are very well aware of the risks, and do fly safely. Remember, no drone pilot wants his 20K drone destroyed. I'll stop stirring now... :D
You're lucky.

In a place like Muizies and along the coast towards Kalk Bay hardly a day goes by that I don't see illegal drone flying :evil:
Most of those that post about drones have little knowledge on the regs, like to keep telling everyone else how they should behave, expect to be accommodated and remind us how it is the future, live with it - in equal measures of ignorance and arrogance.

No one here has said anything other than obey the rules, operate safely and be prepared to give right of way.
When full sized aircraft approach fields they too have to give way to other types, it is part of airmanship.
We keep being told how some fly responsibly, yet in most of our experience all we see are people that do not, nor exercise any form of risk assessment or planning before launch.
Until this changes, no one will see any drone other than a danger and a nuisance, which is unfortunate for those that are responsible.
We really shouldn't blame the drone, it's a stupidity problem that has found an outlet.

(I still don't know how an old flyby pic has turned into a dronesturbation).
+1

(I still don't know how an old flyby pic has turned into a dronesturbation)........-because discussions on politics were banned........
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by hugo_visser » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:32 pm

Hexapilot, my sister in law is a registered drone photographer, every flight gets registered and atc phoned if close to a an airport, was busy with a shoot when the next moment there where 2 mil helis in formation VERY close to the drone, she did not hear and see them. Took evasive action and all good, but very Rattled. Everyone was doing everything correct. There is nothing wrong with her hearing. She takes photos every day.She goes to extreme efforts to prevent accidents. A little feedback.
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