Low flying again

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Ugly Duckling
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:48 pm

rare bird wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:31 pm
what is the limit at FABB? (to keep out of Jan Smuts airspace)
Circuit is 6000'
ORT TMA is 7000'

http://www.brakpanaeroclub.co.za/circuit%20info.htm
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by ACE MAN » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:53 pm

rare bird wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:31 pm
what is the limit at FABB? (to keep out of Jan Smuts airspace)
6000’ and below which happens to be 600agl and below :evil: :twisted: added smilies for our fans and to remind me not to partake in this topic again

Oops UD , posted same time as you
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by ACE MAN » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:55 pm

Ugly Duckling wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:48 pm
[quote="rare bird" post_id=2012321 time=<a href="tel:1548502282">1548502282</a> user_id=17505]
what is the limit at FABB? (to keep out of Jan Smuts airspace)
Circuit is 6000'
ORT TMA is 7000'

http://www.brakpanaeroclub.co.za/circuit%20info.htm
[/quote]
Ugly Duckling wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:48 pm
rare bird wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:31 pm
what is the limit at FABB? (to keep out of Jan Smuts airspace)
Circuit is 6000'
ORT TMA is 7000'

http://www.brakpanaeroclub.co.za/circuit%20info.htm
Technically it’s inside the OR Tambo CTR
IITYWTMWYBMAD
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BobD
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by BobD » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:03 am

Bront wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:12 am
BobD wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:05 am
Bront wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:12 am
Hexapilot you need to get your hearing tested if you can't hear a low flying helicopter or light aircraft approaching!
Actually Bront. I fly at a samaa registered flying club and often we have low flying full size aircraft flying over our club. Even though we are on your dont fly low notams. Yes the rule is give way to a full size aircraft, but often when you are flying you can't hear it. It is normally a non flying member that runs out and tells us to hit the deck. When you are flying your rc plane in a gaggle of rc planes your situational awareness is not looking for anything coming outside of the prescribed circuit. Club rules follow the circuit, especially newbies can't take their eyes of their plane or they lose it and crash. Full size planes and helis sneak up fast because you are fast to us standing on the ground and concentrating on a moving speck. You chaps in full size need to realise that we also have a right to the sky in our designated areas and respect that.

Times are changing and drones are here to stay. It's good advice that beaches will have drones fly low at your peril.
And that is the whole problem! The pilot of the drone is so in the zone that they have no situational awareness whatsoever. If Hugo's sister in law can't hear 2 Orxy's coming then god help us. If you as a drone pilot can't maintain complete situational awareness then you need to have a bystander than can. Making excuses that you didn't hear it coming wont help in a court of law if your drone just killed someone.

I'm not talking about guys flying at the SAMAA club.
Hi Bront

Been off line for a few days.
I'm not a drone pilot just pointing out when flying at a samaa model aircraft site situational awareness does not extend outside of our circuits. As a rc pilot to concentrate on a moving speck in the sky and be looking over your shoulder is impossible. Now drone pilots in my limited knowledge use waypoints and are not flying their creations, gyros are. They are looking at a screen being broadcast back to them not looking up as we do and we rc pilots miss most things happening behind us or coming from outside of our circuits. Our air space is meant to be clean. We assume that but still hit the deck when it is encroached on because we know it will be our ass on the block if something happens.
My point was that there are many irresponsible people out there and especially over holidays there will be drone activity over beaches. Rather stay away.

And there are many responsible drone pilots I'm not lumping them with the holiday warriors
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by BobD » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:11 am

TikkaT3 wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:24 am
BobD wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:05 am
Times are changing and drones are here to stay. It's good advice that beaches will have drones fly low at your peril.
Every time I read drone "pilot" I have a chuckle to myself. You can put down the controller and it'll hover in place until the battery is flat and even then it will return and land safely at your feet when the battery gets too low. Referring to 99% of drone types.

They aren't pilots, they are operators or drivers. Retracts from ACTUAL pilots who require AIRMANSHIP and this attitude from Bob reinforces that the average Drone-Jockey has none.

My my this looks like fun and Bob, this will happen in future - LIVE WITH IT
Nice vid if you need to come to a samaa registered field to get your kicks shooting rc aircraft, well carry on.
Natural stupidity beats Artificial intelligence every time
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by BobD » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:31 am

cage wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:56 am
BobD wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:05 am
... Even though we are on your dont fly low notams.
the notam is to raise awareness that there is model flying in an area, at certain times within an altitude range.
It is NOT a "don't fly" in any respect.

This attitude that aircraft mustn't or shouldn't fly low because a droner may be there is nonsense, we are legally permitted and many operations require it.
We do our best to avoid conflict, one of which is broadcasting intentions. There is no chance of seeing a drone during the day until late, even though we would be looking.
As the less important traffic (as defined by the regs) the onus is on you to operate in a manner that would allow you to respond in time, if you can't do that then go fly somewhere else or not at all.
Hi cage
My apologies for using the wrong terminology as Heisan correctly pointed out I am not a pilot just a rc pilot. I was just replying to the point that you can always hear an aircraft appearing from whatever direction. I did not say you should not fly low just that over the holidays there are many weekend/holiday warriors flying drones at a beach. Yes you have right of way but they dont know or care. I dont want to read on avcom of a drone caused fatality because you have right of way. On our roads we all expect the worst from taxis, and avoid them at all costs. Even though we are in the right. With holiday drone flyers it's the same thing. You would be in your right to hold your line and get killed because these pesky drones should not be there. But in sa this is the reality. I was just pointing it out. That's me for the night. Hat coat door.
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Breytie » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:21 am

BobD wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:31 am
cage wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:56 am
BobD wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:05 am
... Even though we are on your dont fly low notams.
the notam is to raise awareness that there is model flying in an area, at certain times within an altitude range.
It is NOT a "don't fly" in any respect.

This attitude that aircraft mustn't or shouldn't fly low because a droner may be there is nonsense, we are legally permitted and many operations require it.
We do our best to avoid conflict, one of which is broadcasting intentions. There is no chance of seeing a drone during the day until late, even though we would be looking.
As the less important traffic (as defined by the regs) the onus is on you to operate in a manner that would allow you to respond in time, if you can't do that then go fly somewhere else or not at all.
Hi cage
My apologies for using the wrong terminology as Heisan correctly pointed out I am not a pilot just a rc pilot. I was just replying to the point that you can always hear an aircraft appearing from whatever direction. I did not say you should not fly low just that over the holidays there are many weekend/holiday warriors flying drones at a beach. Yes you have right of way but they dont know or care. I dont want to read on avcom of a drone caused fatality because you have right of way. On our roads we all expect the worst from taxis, and avoid them at all costs. Even though we are in the right. With holiday drone flyers it's the same thing. You would be in your right to hold your line and get killed because these pesky drones should not be there. But in sa this is the reality. I was just pointing it out. That's me for the night. Hat coat door.
Cheers
Dylan
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Being right will not prevent you from getting dead. Be sensible and use your brain.
I earlier prepared a massive piece on this, but as an ex anti-air guy - it is super difficult to track any aircraft at low level by visual and aural clues only, even if that is all you are trying to do. And believe you me - even if you KNOW that Puma is coming to pick you up, and you hear it in the area, it still scares the $<<moderated - language>> out of you when the trees part and that thing stands on its tail right behind you before landing. Why? Cause you have no clue how close it is until it is right on top of you.
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by southside » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:24 pm

Seing that the CAA are so hardcore on SMS...perhaps its about time they propose a law change to parliment that prevents just any old gadget shop from selling these things....and the requirement to produce a license to purchase one...one of these days, somewhere in the world we are going to see a catostrophic accident with hundreds of casualties. Unfortunately it is probably going to take an accident like that before anything is done, by which time it will be too late
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by flyfano » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:36 am

The problem here seems to be that there is a few guys that are borred with there own lives and look for reasons to give other people <<moderated - language>> about <<moderated - language>>.

I will do backflips if you who compained can honestly tell me through your whole flying career as a professional or privateer have done everything according to the law and books.

So please grow up.
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by jimdavis » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:20 am

flyfano wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:36 am
The problem here seems to be that there is a few guys that are borred with there own lives and look for reasons to give other people <<moderated - language>> about <<moderated - language>>.

I will do backflips if you who compained can honestly tell me through your whole flying career as a professional or privateer have done everything according to the law and books.

So please grow up.
Perhaps it is only those who have survived doing stupid things who realise how stupid they are 8)

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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Bront » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:51 am

jimdavis wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:20 am
flyfano wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:36 am
The problem here seems to be that there is a few guys that are borred with there own lives and look for reasons to give other people <<moderated - language>> about <<moderated - language>>.

I will do backflips if you who compained can honestly tell me through your whole flying career as a professional or privateer have done everything according to the law and books.

So please grow up.
Perhaps it is only those who have survived doing stupid things who realise how stupid they are 8)

jim
And because they survived they learnt a valuable lesson that they probably couldn't have learnt any other way. We learn much better by making mistakes.
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Ray W » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:54 am

jimdavis wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:20 am
flyfano wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:36 am
The problem here seems to be that there is a few guys that are borred with there own lives and look for reasons to give other people <<moderated - language>> about <<moderated - language>>.

I will do backflips if you who compained can honestly tell me through your whole flying career as a professional or privateer have done everything according to the law and books.

So please grow up.
Perhaps it is only those who have survived doing stupid things who realise how stupid they are 8)

jim
Well put Jim
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by Dobbs » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:06 am

And because they survived they learnt a valuable lesson that they probably couldn't have learnt any other way. We learn much better by making mistakes.
:shock:

We definitely don't live long enough to make all the mistakes to make us better pilot's - I prefer to learn from other's mistakes - although I have made more than enough mistakes to keep me from wanting to make any more :wink:
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by cage » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:19 am

Bront wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:51 am
And because they survived they learnt a valuable lesson that they probably couldn't have learnt any other way. We learn much better by making mistakes.
You are indeed correct, there is nothing like making mistakes to learn something, the challenge in aviation is making sure your mistakes aren't fatal.
If you look at fatal accidents very few are related to guys dicking about so you could conclude that most mistakes are survivable.
I hope you'd agree that it is better to learn from the mistakes of others, but this is somewhat more challenging to do.
You can appreciate that those that have survived stupid behaviour would be a bit unforgiving when seeing others do the same thing, what I have never understood is how righteous people can become, as if they can't understand why someone would do something that they themselves have done. It becomes hypocritical.
Aviation accidents are on an endless loop, people will make mistakes, sometimes with good intentions and other times out of sheer ignorance.
If there is wisdom to be shared then share it but preaching at the blasphemers isn't going to change anything apart from getting plenty of validation from the choir.
We were all sinners once..
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Re: Low flying again

Unread post by jimdavis » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:53 am

cage wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:19 am
You can appreciate that those that have survived stupid behaviour would be a bit unforgiving when seeing others do the same thing, what I have never understood is how righteous people can become, as if they can't understand why someone would do something that they themselves have done. It becomes hypocritical.
Cage, it is not a matter of being unforgiving, its a matter of caring enough to make a loud noise in the interest of safety.

If that makes me righteous and hypocritical - so be it.

jim
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