Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by Deanw » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:19 am

In a reporters mind, an aircraft incident/crash is just that, so if they can tie it up to another recent incident, they will.
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by Broadbandboer » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:36 am

Good result. Hope the repairs are quick. Glad everyone is ok.
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by Greylie » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:44 pm

antonvalks wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:29 pm
I am one of the partners and just had a long chat to the pilot, and yes it is the same aircraft that tried to escape from the hangar two years ago. Just to set a record straight: it was definitely not a fuel issue. The aircraft was almost full...
I wish everyone can learn from Anton.

Put the facts straight quick and all are happy.

These aircraft are amazing machines. In the right hands they are very safe flyers indeed.

I agree with Oom Jim that people must be trained properly when doing the conversion on these birds to be very awake and on high alerts for carb icing.

What will the Jab guys say is a good practice to avoid carb icing to happen on Jabbies. Before it becomes to late to apply carb heat?

Thanx guys.

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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by antonvalks » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:09 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:35 am
Thanks Anton for your comprehensive and clear explanation.

I find if very disturbing that the carb-heat seems to be a bit iffy on these aircraft. I wonder if this aspect is clearly drummed into folks during their conversions.

What often happens is that folks setup cruise rpm and trim the aircraft. A short while later they notice a loss of ALTITUDE not of RPM. So they increase power and trim up a bit to maintain altitude. Then after a few minutes this happens again. The pilot might suspect the throttle is creeping, so he again increases power and tightens the throttle friction nut. Eventually the penny drops and he puts on carb heat. With Lycomings the results are pretty instantaneous. But it sounds as if that's not always the case on a Jabby if you leave it too long.

jim
Thanks Jim, what you say about carb icing is mostly true of the Jabby's as well, except the Jabby doesn't have a friction nut and you will probably hear a change in engine noise and see a drop in RPM before you notice the loss in altitude. This is due to the Jabby being very light and being pretty difficult to trim properly even under normal flying conditions. It takes a fair amount of fiddling with the trim mechanism to get her to fly level. But yes, I agree that the Jabby's carb heat system is indeed a bit iffy. The situation can play out as follows: at the first sign of carb ice (a slight change of engine noise and small drop in RPM), application of carb heat and slight increase in power will almost instantaneously solve the problem, aparantly. This is a false sense of achievement. You will most probably take carb heat away now thinking you have solved the problem. Shortly you will experience another drop in RPM, again causing you to increase power and apply carb heat. This may or maynot appear to solve the problem but by now you will be flying on a much higher throttle setting which without you knowing will exacerbate the icing build up. The next thing will be an almost complete loss of power with RPM as low as 1000 according to my partner. Your application of carb heat at this stage will have no immediate effect on the situation and you now suspect another problem. Because of the low RPM, one of the first things you will do is to now apply full throttle to try and coax a few extra RPM's out of the engine to try and keep her in the air, whilst the full throttle in the mean time keeps on supplying more and more fuel to facilitate a further build up of ice. At the same time the drop in RPM will reduce engine temperature with a lot less heat to melt the ice. By now, the engine no longer produce enough power to allow you to keep flying and you will be forced to execute an emergency landing.

In my own experience when this happenned to me (luckily I had about 1700 RPM), I found a lower throttle setting after some time of applying carb heat, improved the situation and the engine started to run smoothly although at a low power setting. This caused engine temperature to increase which slightly improved the effectivenes of the carb heat. Do not, I repeat do not remove carb heat at any stage as this is the only means you have to melt the ice. Keep it on. Hopefully you will have either enough height or enough RPM to keep you long enough in the air for the carb heat to eventually melt the ice and have you on your merry way again.

To summarise: when flying a Jabby in high humidity or you experience the first signs of carb ice apply full carb heat. Do not apply more power, rather trim for the lower power coming from the engine. The situation will improve but keep the carb heat out and retrim if necessary. You can safely land and even do a go around if necessary with carb heat out on a Jabby. What you dont want is the big drop to 1000 RPM because there is no quick fix.

If you are forced to do an emergency landing, please cut the engine (switch off the mags) just before touch down to prevent a broken crank from happening if you have a prop strike in the process. The complete loss of power will help reduce your speed more quickly.

If anyone disagrees please correct me as I do not want to give wrong advice on this forum.
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:57 pm

Sorry to hear about ESS Anton. Full open throttle should lead to less carb icing not more. a Jabbie is rigged to supply filtered carb heat so it might take a little longer to heat . However you could fly a Jabbie all day long with carb heat on with very little effect on the power it produce. As you eluded it is perfectly safe to do a go around with carb heat on. Not all Jabbies has the tendency to carb ice though. The one's that does however are serial offenders. I suspect it might be due to airflow through the very tight cowling.I can honestly say I have never experienced carb icing on my Jabbie....but I live in the highveld. During the winter I normally use carb heat to enrich the mixture as they do not have a mixture control.
Last edited by Marius Schrenk on Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by Avgas » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:43 pm

If you are forced to do an emergency landing, please cut the engine (switch off the mags) just before touch down to prevent a broken crank from happening if you have a prop strike in the process. The complete loss of power will help reduce your speed more quickly.

There is no way that the crankshaft could have broken with that degree of prop strike. :wink: 8-[ 8-[
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by Roger » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:16 pm

Imagine pilot would have come back to idle in this landing? How many makes of motors would break a crank under such a reduced load and power setting?
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by crazeeflya » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:45 am

Marius Schrenk wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:57 pm
Sorry to hear about ESS Anton. Full open throttle should lead to less carb icing not more. a Jabbie is rigged to supply filtered carb heat so it might take a little longer to heat . However you could fly a Jabbie all day long with carb heat on with very little effect on the power it produce. As you eluded it is perfectly safe to do a go around with carb heat on. Not all Jabbies has the tenancy to carb ice though. The one's that does however are serial offenders. I suspect it might be due to airflow through the very tight cowling.I can honestly say I have never experienced carb icing on my Jabbie....but I live in the highveld. During the winter I normally use carb heat to enrich the mixture as they do not have a mixture control.
Agreed Marius, shortly after getting my licence, in typical midlands high humidity under the cloud base, I experienced violent vibration in my then Jab SP 2200; to the degree that I thought there was an engine break up in process - backed off throttle to try "save her" ...got worse....then the training penny dropped and I pulled carb heat...managed to nurse her over Pietermaritzburg central for a straight in landing on 16 PMB. Scottsville racecourse was looking really tempting at a point!! Lesson learnt.
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by dollar » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:48 am

Wow! That must be a very light little aerie! Given the wheel diameter that is a remarkable landing on beach sand. Well done to the pilot!

Crank shear is surprising. Reduced power and soft sand?
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by Marius Schrenk » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:20 am

dollar wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:48 am
Wow! That must be a very light little aerie! Given the wheel diameter that is a remarkable landing on beach sand. Well done to the pilot!

Crank shear is surprising. Reduced power and soft sand?
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by antonvalks » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:17 pm

Avgas wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:43 pm
If you are forced to do an emergency landing, please cut the engine (switch off the mags) just before touch down to prevent a broken crank from happening if you have a prop strike in the process. The complete loss of power will help reduce your speed more quickly.

There is no way that the crankshaft could have broken with that degree of prop strike. :wink: 8-[ 8-[
Richard, if not when the prop struck the sand, then when dit the crank break? The only other possibility is in the air during the flight. Yet, the PIC did not mention he heard any sound at all that could have been the crank breaking. He spesifically mentioned the prop still spinning at about 1000 rpm during the landing and that he only cut the mags after the prop strike. My comment, however, was actually a more general one to recommend a specific action since there is no guarantee everyone will be so "lucky" to have their prop strike soft sand, and not a rock or something as hard. I have to mention our engine has, as yet, not been opened, so the verdict of a broken crank might be overturned in favor of something less dramatic [-o<
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by heisan » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:38 pm

antonvalks wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:17 pm
Richard, if not when the prop struck the sand, then when dit the crank break? The only other possibility is in the air during the flight. Yet, the PIC did not mention he heard any sound at all that could have been the crank breaking. He spesifically mentioned the prop still spinning at about 1000 rpm during the landing and that he only cut the mags after the prop strike.
Depending on where the crank breaks, it is possible for the engine to keep running. Usually with a substantial loss of power, but sometimes with surprisingly little power loss.

If the crank did break, it is much more likely that this occurred in the air, than with a low power prop strike on the ground.
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by BigglesSA » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:06 pm

Anton why do they think the crank is broken?
Last edited by BigglesSA on Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by lessersg » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:31 am

With our two major engine catastrophic failures Crank was OK.....rest was destroyed. Bottom end really solid.
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Re: Jabiru beach emergency landing. Gamtoos area.

Unread post by Avgas » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:29 pm

What gave them the impression the crank broke?
If the heard noise when turning the engine over it could have been flywheel bolts that broke.
If the crank broke in flight it would cause a huge power reduction.
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