Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by skytrooper » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:56 am

heisan wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:49 pm
skytrooper wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:49 pm
Well here's a question since there's no updates yet, if its so complicated to make a plane work 100% on an automated system, then why does Airbus get it right and Boeing not ?
The 777 and 787 are fly by wire. The MAX had to remain manual to keep the type certificate (and many pilots like it that way).
ok so i assume that makes the automated system much more complicated ? One one hand i can perhaps understand this, but on the other hand not, it should be easy to separate manual from automation when the need arise.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by skytrooper » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:57 am

jimdavis wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:01 pm
skytrooper wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:49 pm
Well here's a question since there's no updates yet, if its so complicated to make a plane work 100% on an automated system, then why does Airbus get it right and Boeing not ?
Ha ha ha, Skytrooper, when did Airbus get it right? :lol:

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Well...they not grounded and not falling out of the sky... yes ?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by heisan » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:22 am

skytrooper wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:56 am
heisan wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:49 pm
skytrooper wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:49 pm
Well here's a question since there's no updates yet, if its so complicated to make a plane work 100% on an automated system, then why does Airbus get it right and Boeing not ?
The 777 and 787 are fly by wire. The MAX had to remain manual to keep the type certificate (and many pilots like it that way).
ok so i assume that makes the automated system much more complicated ? One one hand i can perhaps understand this, but on the other hand not, it should be easy to separate manual from automation when the need arise.
Sorry - I misinterpreted with what you meant by '100% automated'. AFAIK, outside of some experiments, there are not 100% autonomous Airbus airliners. All the newer Airbus's though are fly by wire (i.e. all control surfaces are controlled by the computer, indirectly via pilot inputs). But that is the same as the 777 and 787. Perhaps you can clarify what you mean with '100% on an automated system'?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by skytrooper » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:19 am

Your technical opinions is as always first class Heisan, but i don't think this can be answered by a technical perception on the matter.

Without complicating it too much what it comes down to is. Airbus gets it right, but Boeing doesn't, they both are the biggest players in air transport in the world for decades now, so to me it's just strange that with Boeing having decades of expertise, millions upon millions of fight hours, they should've learnt from the decades of evolutionary changes to know exactly what works well and what does not, solving something as critical as this early on upon the priority list of critical "things" that needs to be absolutely fool proof.

It is something that needs certainty, 1st priority wrt standard safety protocol, that needs to be met before even contemplating about integrating it. That's the standard i expect from them as the very norm from a big player such as Boeing.

Like i said Airbus gets it right, and i would expect nothing less from an airline that has been in the industry for decades, but Boeing doesn't. Both have a Vast amount of technical experience. One would think a problem as Critical as this would be basics for a big player such as Boeing, it is after all the issue at hand, direly Critical to get it right 1st time.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Stephan van Tonder » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:44 pm

Seriously?.
AF447 and their oopsie with the A400M is a company that ALWAYS gets it right...
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by skytrooper » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:52 pm

Fair answer... but that was 10 years ago, technology then is not the technology of today, No Airbus problems now, after so many years of experience and technology that was suppose to have been perfected (obviously you would choose the very best components), a problem that should not be occurring occurs.
Last edited by skytrooper on Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by coline » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:59 pm

And a Air New Zealand A320 that stalled and crashed due to a frozen AoA sensor that the automation could not react to and the pilots did not take over in time.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by skytrooper » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:04 pm

coline wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:59 pm
And a Air New Zealand A320 that stalled and crashed due to a frozen AoA sensor that the automation could not react to and the pilots did not take over in time.
But again..
2008, that's ancient times compared to today, with a brand new plane (747 max) and perfected systems, improved technology (very much suppose to be if you are that big of an aviation player) Something as critical as this should not be a guessing game, it should be an absolute certainty. And at this time and age, should be absolutely perfected before being implemented.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by EDP » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:28 pm

2008, that's ancient times compared to today, with a brand new plane (747 max) and perfected systems
Never heard of this version? Still, it is probably just a typo, like a mistake in hundreds of lines of code?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:39 pm

Boeing were leveraging the supply chain for the 737 to the Max :lol: with this product rather than go clean sheet like the Europeans have done.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Ned Yakman » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:33 pm

Is anyone joining the dots?

The unfolding saga around the FAA's certification of the 737Max is raising some uncomfortable questions for CAA's around the world, especially those that simply accept the FAA's certifications in good faith and in the spirit of reciprocity which ICAO promotes. Last night/earlier today, China announced it was withdrawing its acceptance of the 737Max’s certification. It would hardly be surprising if they weren't the only ones.

It could be argued that for both the FAA and Boeing, this is Strike 3.

Strike 1 was in the 1990s and into the 2000s with the 737 Classics which had a rudder design flaw that caused aircraft to suddenly pitch into a nosedive without any warning or input from the pilots. Several incidents were reported and only after fatal accidents at Colorado Springs 03 March 1991 and near Pittsburgh on 08 September 1994 did Boeing move to re-design the rudder actuator system (the initial re-design didn’t work too well either). It turned out Boeing (and the FAA) had known about the problem since 1969 when it published a service memo citing reports of rudders moving inadvertently. Do a Google search for “737 rudder hardovers” or read Byron Acohido’s series of exposés that were published in The Seattle Times. http://old.seattletimes.com/news/local/737/response/


Strike 2 was in 2013. It emerged in wake of a series of 787 Dreamliner fires - including one involving one of the Boeing flight test aircraft used for the certification tests - when the FAA admitted to letting Boeing certify the 787's lithium batteries and their casings because it lacked the expertise and resource to do it. See https://www.cbsnews.com/news/faa-follow ... 3-04-2013/ and this one: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... s-for-787/
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by propshaft » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:10 pm

Skytrooper... A400M crash was May 2015 due to fuel software malfunction....recent technology, not 10 years ago...
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Sea Rescue » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:19 pm

Yep ! - and maybe I misread it, but it appears to have been overlooked ? The Air France Airbus that stalled and fell into the Atlantic due to a frozen pitot tube giving incorrect airspeed to the flight computer ?? Eish !! "these matters" can become rather "sensitive".

Better allow each manufacturer to sort out their own difficulties and not pick sides too vehemently as tomorrow could be "Your Turn" ?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:51 pm

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/articl ... JuowqSxWEc

Interesting article from Plane & Pilot Mag (attached).
However this is still a discussion on MCAS...so why did these two flights experience vertical profile instability immefiately after takeoff while still on the autopilot. Something is fishy and Boeing is keeping verrry quiet!
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by heisan » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:07 pm

Hop Harrigan wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:51 pm
However this is still a discussion on MCAS...so why did these two flights experience vertical profile instability immefiately after takeoff while still on the autopilot. Something is fishy and Boeing is keeping verrry quiet!
Huh? (1) AP is not engaged until after take-off. (2) Lion Air flight never engaged AP at all. (3) Lion Air profile looked pretty smooth until flaps were retracted (at which point MCAS kicks in). (4) The pilots will be following the 'AIRSPEED UNRELIABLE' procedure (the AoA failure triggers this from rotation - so they will be flying pitch and power settings at this point).
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