Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Swartbok » Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:04 pm

heisan wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:25 pm
Swartbok wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:15 pm
Where did you get that manual and screenshot?
And when was it published and updated?
Anout half way down the page here:
http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

Dated January 2017.
Cool thanx. That’s a website, might you maybe have any official Boeing pilot manuals reference to that?
Like FCOM or FCTM or so, prior to Lionair. I see it says systems differences manual, I have certainly not had ready acces to such a manual yet.
Is it maybe in the maintenance manual?

I’m trying to follow a path here.
Did my company not tell me about MCAS?
Did Boeing not tell my company about MCAS?
Did Boeing not tell my company that they should tell us about MCAS?
Or maybe did the the company (if there is such) that creates and distributed these differences courses not include it?

You surely can’t expect any professional pilot to study and rely on non official, non readily available documentation.

And if so, this will be a first for me to see a differences course with no FCOM or FCTM backup.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by heisan » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:09 pm

Swartbok wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:04 pm
Cool thanx. That’s a website, might you maybe have any official Boeing pilot manuals reference to that?
Like FCOM or FCTM or so, prior to Lionair. I see it says systems differences manual, I have certainly not had ready acces to such a manual yet.
Is it maybe in the maintenance manual?
Hmmm... You may have a point there. Boeing seems to be very jealous of their copyrights - very little available to us plebs - and much of that gets removed quickly. I did not think that this could be a maintenance manual, as the details are too generic to be useful for maintenance - but perhaps it is. I will see if I can dig up any more detail tomorrow.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Aspiring Mango » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:18 am

This article gets closer to the truth and is extremely well written

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/boeing-7 ... ordle-cfa/
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Swartbok » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:05 pm

Sorry Heisan, I was a bit nasty with you.

It is in the Boeing Engineering manual and non of the flight crew manuals, I spoke about it in the first few pages. A quick exchange with beckers, who is a very clued up ex colleague and into his technical manuals.

The point is that Boeing included the MCAS info only in the engineering manuals and didn’t feel it pertinent to share with the pilots. This led ALPA in USA to get up in arms. We were not happy either with that.
The crew before Lionair did not know about MCAS, non of us did, and it wasn’t included in any pilot differences training.
It’s still not in the FCOM or FCTM, only a couple of AD’s.

My company has on their own now (not Boeing suggested) included special attention to all trim failures the simulator can possibly muster. I did mine just a week ago.

So unfortunately, yes Boeing can be held responsible as their ways specifically was not to inform pilots or operators that they should inform pilots about the existence of MCAS on the Max before Lionair.

Only that differences training in the Engineering manuals was the only mention of MCAS on the Max before people were killed.

Yes the pilots could have handled it better, but without any forewarning from Boeing ?
I have an argument to make also with combining it with the trim runaway, but that will take pages, come drink a beer in UAE and we have night to chat.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by kennyhubbard » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:01 pm

Aspiring Mango wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:18 am
This article gets closer to the truth and is extremely well written

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/boeing-7 ... ordle-cfa/
That article appears to be more of a boeing media spin than anything else. I don't agree with it's contents in relation to the pilot error component.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by heisan » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:27 pm

Swartbok wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:05 pm
Sorry Heisan, I was a bit nasty with you.

It is in the Boeing Engineering manual and non of the flight crew manuals, I spoke about it in the first few pages. A quick exchange with beckers, who is a very clued up ex colleague and into his technical manuals.
Not nasty at all - if information is incorrect, then it needs to be corrected.

Seeing as you seem to have some access to proper documentation, could you possibly confirm the QRH action for 'AoA Disagree' for the MAX?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Chuck » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:37 pm

kennyhubbard wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:01 pm
Aspiring Mango wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:18 am
This article gets closer to the truth and is extremely well written

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/boeing-7 ... ordle-cfa/
That article appears to be more of a boeing media spin than anything else. I don't agree with it's contents in relation to the pilot error component.
After reading it I am wondering whether "Crews inability to take manual control of the aircraft", would be a valid finding in an accident report. As discussed in the first pages of the lion-air accident and as proposed a by Jim; a cub mode switch would have been appropriate, though I would rather call it a "BS-off" switch (Boeing Systems). But like some others on this thread I may already be considered a 'fossil' in my thinking of safe aircraft design and pilot training and experience requirements.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Swartbok » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:15 pm

heisan wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:27 pm
Swartbok wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:05 pm
Sorry Heisan, I was a bit nasty with you.

It is in the Boeing Engineering manual and non of the flight crew manuals, I spoke about it in the first few pages. A quick exchange with beckers, who is a very clued up ex colleague and into his technical manuals.
Not nasty at all - if information is incorrect, then it needs to be corrected.

Seeing as you seem to have some access to proper documentation, could you possibly confirm the QRH action for 'AoA Disagree' for the MAX?
Max QRH for AOA disagree

“Condition: The AOA DISAGREE alert indicates the left left and right angle of attack angle of attack vanes disagree

“Airspeed errors and the IAS DISAGREE alert may occur

Altimeter errors and the ALT DISAGREE alert may occur”

AOA Disagree checklist Complet

Not sure what it has to do with the fact that Boeing didn’t share MCAS info with pilots, but my checklist above is quoted Verbatim.
If I was tech savvy I would have posted a foto, but then Boeing might just chew my <<moderated - language>> for copyright, they might still.
Last edited by Swartbok on Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by heisan » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:18 pm

Swartbok wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:15 pm
Max QRH for AOA disagree

“Condition: The AOA DISAGREE alert indicates the left left and right angle of attack angle of attack vanes disagree

“Airspeed errors and the IAS DISAGREE alert may occur

Altimeter errors and the ALT DISAGREE alert may occur”

AOA Disagree checklist Complete
Thanks, so even if these specific aircraft were fitted with the AoA disagree indicator, it would have been useless without updated procedures and training.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Swartbok » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:19 pm

heisan wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:18 pm
Swartbok wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:15 pm
Max QRH for AOA disagree

“Condition: The AOA DISAGREE alert indicates the left left and right angle of attack angle of attack vanes disagree

“Airspeed errors and the IAS DISAGREE alert may occur

Altimeter errors and the ALT DISAGREE alert may occur”

AOA Disagree checklist Complete
Thanks, so even if these specific aircraft were fitted with the AoA disagree indicator, it would have been useless without updated procedures and training.
Yup, pretty much.
Similarly the Speed trim checklist says, “continue normal operation”.
IOW there’s nothing I can do about it, but at least Boeing has a systems discription, so that I know it exists and how it works. Boeing philosophy with MCAS has been an epic fail.
And no, it’s not the operator’s responsibility to add engineering info int pilots training, It’s Boeing’s responsibility to tell operators and flight crew info through Flight Crew manuals as they have always done in the past (Boeing philosophy). In my opinion.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Swartbok » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:45 pm

Boeing philosophy is scattered all over the different manuals and has a double goal as a legal disclaimer, ie, the introduction section of the QRH.

If anyone queries discrepancies, the answer is, Manage It, that’s why your earning the “Big Bucks”
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
What was that thread again, Is it worth being an airline pilot. Not for the BUCKS vs responsibility it ain’t.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:09 pm

American Airlines pilots want better 737 Max training
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boeing ... -1.5114538
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:07 am

On Apr 27th 2019 it became known, that four independent whistleblowers, current and former Boeing employees, had called the FAA hotline for whistleblowers regarding aviation safety concerns on Apr 5th 2019. The concerns reported were wiring damage to the AoA related wiring as result of foreign object damage as well as concerns with the TRIM CUTOUT switches. The FAA believes these reports may open completely new investigative angles into the causes of the two crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia.
http://avherald.com/h?article=4c534c4a/0045&opt=0
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by MadMacs » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:30 am

Swartbok wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:19 pm
heisan wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:18 pm
Swartbok wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:15 pm
Max QRH for AOA disagree

“Condition: The AOA DISAGREE alert indicates the left left and right angle of attack angle of attack vanes disagree

“Airspeed errors and the IAS DISAGREE alert may occur

Altimeter errors and the ALT DISAGREE alert may occur”

AOA Disagree checklist Complete
Thanks, so even if these specific aircraft were fitted with the AoA disagree indicator, it would have been useless without updated procedures and training.
Yup, pretty much.
Similarly the Speed trim checklist says, “continue normal operation”.
IOW there’s nothing I can do about it, but at least Boeing has a systems discription, so that I know it exists and how it works. Boeing philosophy with MCAS has been an epic fail.
And no, it’s not the operator’s responsibility to add engineering info int pilots training, It’s Boeing’s responsibility to tell operators and flight crew info through Flight Crew manuals as they have always done in the past (Boeing philosophy). In my opinion.
I was reading on the ffruit website that pilots find the STS counter intuitive in that it does the opposite to what they want and might have lulled the Ethiopian crew into thinking it was that that was trimming the stab and not Mcas.

https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/614997- ... ystem.html
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by 1900driver » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:31 am

STS can get a little “ whirr whirr whirr” after take-off. It is momentary and doesn’t usually last any longer.

Normally with the slower trimming of the flaps up speed rate this would equate to about a full turn of the trim wheel.

MCAS trimmed for 30odd full rotations during a 10 second interval.

With Lion Air one crew concluded a faulty STS on the tech log, but MCAS was still unknown.

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