Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

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Taildraggerdriver
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Taildraggerdriver » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:32 am

richard C wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:57 am
Wow, where are they going to park them all ?
Boeing’s don’t park, they fly 8)
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:51 am

Taildraggerdriver wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:32 am
richard C wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:57 am
Wow, where are they going to park them all ?
Boeing’s don’t park, they fly 8)
Must be waiting at the drive-thru then :twisted:
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:58 am

Ugly Duckling wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:51 am
Taildraggerdriver wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:32 am
richard C wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:57 am
Wow, where are they going to park them all ?
Boeing’s don’t park, they fly 8)
Must be waiting at the drive-thru then :twisted:
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by richard C » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:19 am

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by MadMacs » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:40 am

The closest I get to flying these days is when I put my cellphone in 'flight mode'.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Volo » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:19 am

MadMacs wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:40 am
:oops: FAA find more problems

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/26/73643041 ... -to-flight
Bizarre to say the least - the FAA issue a statement that they have found a new problem but don't tell you what it is .
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by sweptwing » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:11 pm

Volo wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:19 am
MadMacs wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:40 am
:oops: FAA find more problems

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/26/73643041 ... -to-flight
Bizarre to say the least - the FAA issue a statement that they have found a new problem but don't tell you what it is .
They have probably figured out that a normal trim runaway is more dangerous then a false MCAS input.

Personally I think the only way to sort this out for good, is with high quality pilot training. Crew need to be able to recognize the trim runaway and act with the memory items without delay.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by heisan » Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:14 pm

Volo wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:19 am
MadMacs wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:40 am
:oops: FAA find more problems

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/26/73643041 ... -to-flight
Bizarre to say the least - the FAA issue a statement that they have found a new problem but don't tell you what it is .
Well, the FAA will generally not tell the public what the issue is - it is for Boeing to publish it. Some details have been leaked though:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/26/poli ... index.html

It has nothing to do with MCAS itself - but rather a failure of the computer on which MCAS runs (also a lot of other trim control software runs on this computer). If the computer fails, then it can leave the trim running - a classic 'trim runaway' scenario. The FAA has previously stated (look back a page or so on this thread) that they are not happy with Boeing's (and probably the rest of the industry's) method of determining if a pilot can safely recover from a trim runaway - so now every trim runaway path is being evaluated.

Significantly, this is a shared system with the NG. It will be a real disaster if the FAA decides that the NGs should be grounded too...
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by MadMacs » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:18 am

The problem that the FAA are encountering is not a failure of the computer as falsely reported but rather the response time of the system to react to the input from the yoke trim switches. Why they are only finding this now beggars belief.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by MadMacs » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:22 pm

The closest I get to flying these days is when I put my cellphone in 'flight mode'.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by bucky_za » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:31 pm

In the old days, bean counters worked around what the engineers wanted,
Now the engineers work around what the bean counters want it would seem.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by jimdavis » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:23 pm

bucky_za wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:31 pm
In the old days, bean counters worked around what the engineers wanted,
Now the engineers work around what the bean counters want it would seem.
Very neatly put, Bucky. =D> =D> =D>

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by John.com » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:24 pm

I found this outstanding article, written by Gregory Travis, a pilot for 30 years and a software developer for more than 40.

How the Boeing 737 Max Disaster Looks to a Software Developer - Design shortcuts meant to make a new plane seem like an old, familiar one are to blame

(I searched to see if it had been posted before, so apologies in advance if it has been)

A short excerpt . . . .

"So Boeing produced a dynamically unstable airframe, the 737 Max. That is big strike No. 1. Boeing then tried to mask the 737’s dynamic instability with a software system. Big strike No. 2. Finally, the software relied on systems known for their propensity to fail (angle-of-attack indicators) and did not appear to include even rudimentary provisions to cross-check the outputs of the angle-of-attack sensor against other sensors, or even the other angle-of-attack sensor. Big strike No. 3.

None of the above should have passed muster. None of the above should have passed the “OK” pencil of the most junior engineering staff, much less a DER.

That’s not a big strike. That’s a political, social, economic, and technical sin."
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by jimdavis » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:02 pm

John.com wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:24 pm
I found this outstanding article, written by Gregory Travis, a pilot for 30 years and a software developer for more than 40.

How the Boeing 737 Max Disaster Looks to a Software Developer - Design shortcuts meant to make a new plane seem like an old, familiar one are to blame

(I searched to see if it had been posted before, so apologies in advance if it has been)

A short excerpt . . . .

"So Boeing produced a dynamically unstable airframe, the 737 Max. That is big strike No. 1. Boeing then tried to mask the 737’s dynamic instability with a software system. Big strike No. 2. Finally, the software relied on systems known for their propensity to fail (angle-of-attack indicators) and did not appear to include even rudimentary provisions to cross-check the outputs of the angle-of-attack sensor against other sensors, or even the other angle-of-attack sensor. Big strike No. 3.

None of the above should have passed muster. None of the above should have passed the “OK” pencil of the most junior engineering staff, much less a DER.

That’s not a big strike. That’s a political, social, economic, and technical sin."
Geezzz John I wonder if that's not a bit harsh. I think strike Nos.1 and 2 are pretty common today. I suspect that a hell of a lot of aircraft use electronics to improve the pilot/aircraft interface. Aren't all Airbuses basically in that category? And a lot of fighters are totally unflyable without computes interfering. Come to think of it yaw-dampers are very much the same thing.

To me the above seem pretty normal and it is just strike 3 that seems to be the real green person in the woodpile.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by StressMerchant » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:36 pm

So Boeing produced a dynamically unstable airframe, the 737 Max
I doubt it is dynamically unstable in the aeronautical sense.
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