Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:56 pm

Image

letter to Boeing :
https://www.faa.gov/news/media/attachme ... letter.pdf

whats going on here ?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Jasondn78 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:40 am

Romeo E.T. wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:56 pm
[whats going on here ?
Here are the text messages the letter and report refer to. From I understand is that there is a transcript of text messages between two Boeing employees working in the Sims during November 2016. Their messages highlight there own concerns regarding MCAS and also highlights pressures applied on them and the program to get the MAX certified.
C238A22A-2BDE-4608-B535-EC6763D1FFA7.jpeg
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by StressMerchant » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:43 am

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:46 am

That is damning :shock:
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by StressMerchant » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:37 am

I'm interested to find out what role the people in the released conversation actually played in the certification. It sounds like they were running some Subpart G stuff. It would be interesting to find out how they were interacting with the flight test team, and the system safety team.

A lot of the MCAS debacle is related to things that "fell between the cracks". It sounds more and more like a silo mentality has prevented people from communicating properly.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by heisan » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:48 am

Jasondn78 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:40 am
Romeo E.T. wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:56 pm
[whats going on here ?
Here are the text messages the letter and report refer to. From I understand is that there is a transcript of text messages between two Boeing employees working in the Sims during November 2016. Their messages highlight there own concerns regarding MCAS and also highlights pressures applied on them and the program to get the MAX certified.

C238A22A-2BDE-4608-B535-EC6763D1FFA7.jpeg
Interesting that they talk of 'going to get me some spreadsheet table that shows when it's supposed to kick in' - which would imply that this was still an early version of MCAS, which still had an ASI input.

Perhaps this is part of the testing that resulted in removing the ASI input from MCAS, giving a consistent activation regime, but also introducing the single-sensor failure path?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by biffvj » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:36 am

In many large corporations the pressure from shareholders for big returns creates a culture top down of gyppos and shortcuts and then lies and cover ups that eventually catch up with them and their reputation is gone. The reason Dennis was not just fired outright; at the top they were all in the decision making and knew what was going on. Blame it on greed.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by eddy » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:04 pm

StressMerchant wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:37 am
I'm interested to find out what role the people in the released conversation actually played in the certification. It sounds like they were running some Subpart G stuff. It would be interesting to find out how they were interacting with the flight test team, and the system safety team.

A lot of the MCAS debacle is related to things that "fell between the cracks". It sounds more and more like a silo mentality has prevented people from communicating properly.
Their role and how MCAS debacle happened would be interesting, but that is not what will be stressing the Boeing leadership now.

The tone of the FAA letter to Muilenburg is significant. It is not only asking for an explanation of the conversation which could be innocuous, but also wants an immediate explanation of why Boeing sat on this information despite knowing about it for months. This is now not about what happened in 2016 but what has been happening in 2019 during the investigation.

For an organization trying to get it's plane in the air again, this lack of candour will severely damage the trust relationship with the regulator and can't be seen as helping the process.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Ned Yakman » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:44 pm

https://mailchi.mp/7036f3272a19/airinsi ... e904ce3c44

From AirInsight, 21 October 2019
Weekly Update #113

News reports Friday indicated that text messages between Boeing employees showed that the company apparently lied to the FAA regarding the safety of the MAX and that Boeing knew about these messages for some time before turning them over to the regulators. The news about the MAX continues to get worse, as misleading a regulatory agency that resulted in 346 deaths will likely be viewed as criminal in nature.

The history of the MAX has been troubling, and these allegations are likely to generate formal charges from the Department of Justice investigation that is on-going.

This couldn’t get much worse for Boeing. Let's look at some of the possible effects this may have.

We started our list and stopped when we reached 37. The implications of today’s news will be far-reaching and could change the landscape of the industry.

1. Will the MAX re-certification be further delayed?

2. If Boeing lied to the FAA about one system, why wouldn’t they have lied about more than one?

3. Without a complete double-check of the entire certification of the aircraft, how can the FAA and international regulators assure the public that the MAX is now safe?

4. International regulators were highly critical of the FAA certification processes, as reported in the Joint Authorities Technical Review briefing last week. Will international regulators demand additional independent testing apart from the FAA?

5. Will they demand their own recertification?

6. How long will additional regulatory oversight impact the return to service of the MAX?

7. Will full recertification required, reviewing everything?

8. Could that take another year or two to complete, keeping the MAX grounded?

9. Knowing that Boeing lied to the FAA, how can the agency now defend its certification process, and what will it take to convince the flying public that the 737 MAX is safe?

10. In an era of social media, will Boeing’s delay in turning over messages be considered a cover-up?

11. With a tacit admission of a criminal act in the text messages, will Boeing take appropriate action against those employees, and further change its culture to restore safety, rather than profits, as the number one objective?

12. Will Dennis Muilenburg survive as CEO, with the Board now knowing of an apparent cover-up in delaying sharing of these messages, and a schedule to face Congress on the 29th?

13. Will he be fired before he is scheduled to testify?

14. Will airlines, concerned about customer acceptance of the aircraft, switch orders to competing for aircraft from Airbus?

15. What impact will these allegations have on market share, and the corresponding impacts on employment in Renton?

16. How rapidly could Airbus and its supply chain ramp-up production to meet additional demand?

17. Will the A220 and A320 families both benefit from the MAX debacle?

18. Will the 737MAX7 and MAX10 models be canceled?

19. If full recertification is required, how long can Boeing afford to keep the plant open and building aircraft to be delivered at a later date?

20. With the credibility of Boeing now in question, will the certification process for the 777-X extend the already late entry into service schedule further, and how much more will it cost?

21. Will this impact the planned merger with Embraer?

22. Would Boeing be able to deliver Embraer E195-E2 models to customers as an interim aircraft?

23. Will the merger be canceled?

24. Does this further delay the NMA program at Boeing?

25. Will this force a move-up in the schedule for the Future Small Aircraft?

26. What will this do for earnings, particularly since lawyers now have new ammunition that Boeing lied to the FAA?

27. Will out of court settlements be much higher than anticipated?

28. Will the 737MAX supply chain survive an extended grounding, and will Boeing need to “bailout” smaller suppliers by continuing to take on inventory for future production?

29. How low will the Boeing share price drop, knowing that the company now faces tens of billions in potential costs from the MAX program failures and apparent cover-up?

30. Will there be criminal indictments of Boeing executives who may have known about the potential problems with the aircraft and hid MCAS problems from the FAA, airline customers, pilots, and Boeing’s airline customers?

31. How will customers react to the realization that Boeing apparently lied to the FAA?

32. Will the old saying “If it isn’t Boeing, I’m not going” be reversed in the near future?

33. Will there be customer boycotts of the 737 MAX on social media?

34. Could those boycotts extend to other Boeing aircraft?

35. If boycotts cripple profitability for Boeing aircraft, could this reduce orders for non-MAX Boeing aircraft as well?

36. Is Boeing “too big to fail” and could a government bailout result?

37. Can Boeing’s board survive this crisis?

We will be looking at all of these questions in the next week for our subscribers.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Trent772B » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:09 pm

I can’t imagine any airline in there right mind would order a Max now. I feel sorry for those who already have.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by jimdavis » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:31 pm

Trent772B wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:09 pm
I can’t imagine any airline in there right mind would order a Max now. I feel sorry for those who already have.
Ha ha ha Trent, don't you think that after this scrutiny it is likely to be the safest aircraft ever built?

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Wayne Boonzaier » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:09 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:31 pm
Trent772B wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:09 pm
I can’t imagine any airline in there right mind would order a Max now. I feel sorry for those who already have.
Ha ha ha Trent, don't you think that after this scrutiny it is likely to be the safest aircraft ever built?

jim
Well the real problem that necessitated implementation of the MCAS system has not been fixed, namely that the placement of the engines above the wing can cause the nose to pitch up and this undesirable inherent unstable flight characteristic remains. The management of inherent instability by a computer management system may be desirable for a fighter jet but a commercial airline not so much, isn't this the crux of the matter ?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by heisan » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:26 pm

Wayne Boonzaier wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:09 pm
Well the real problem that necessitated implementation of the MCAS system has not been fixed, namely that the placement of the engines above the wing can cause the nose to pitch up and this undesirable inherent unstable flight characteristic remains. The management of inherent instability by a computer management system may be desirable for a fighter jet but a commercial airline not so much, isn't this the crux of the matter ?
Hmmm... Then we better scrap all Boeings from the 737 classic onwards, and every Airbus - because they all rely on some form of computer stability augmentation to meet the FAA mandated handling requirements over the entire operating range.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by jimdavis » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:49 pm

heisan wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:26 pm
Wayne Boonzaier wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:09 pm
Well the real problem that necessitated implementation of the MCAS system has not been fixed, namely that the placement of the engines above the wing can cause the nose to pitch up and this undesirable inherent unstable flight characteristic remains. The management of inherent instability by a computer management system may be desirable for a fighter jet but a commercial airline not so much, isn't this the crux of the matter ?
Hmmm... Then we better scrap all Boeings from the 737 classic onwards, and every Airbus - because they all rely on some form of computer stability augmentation to meet the FAA mandated handling requirements over the entire operating range.
And pretty much every modern car too.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by biffvj » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:00 am

jimdavis wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:49 pm
heisan wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:26 pm
Wayne Boonzaier wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:09 pm
Well the real problem that necessitated implementation of the MCAS system has not been fixed, namely that the placement of the engines above the wing can cause the nose to pitch up and this undesirable inherent unstable flight characteristic remains. The management of inherent instability by a computer management system may be desirable for a fighter jet but a commercial airline not so much, isn't this the crux of the matter ?
Hmmm... Then we better scrap all Boeings from the 737 classic onwards, and every Airbus - because they all rely on some form of computer stability augmentation to meet the FAA mandated handling requirements over the entire operating range.
And pretty much every modern car too.

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Electronic protection in aircraft and cars is necessary to protect the craft from situations which arise that make it difficult for the pilot to control the craft safely. But as in cars, the pilot is very disconnected from what is actually happening. In modern cars, the driver thinks he is a great driver, when actually the cars systems are working overtime, fixing up his bad driving, especially down the mountain pass. When the vehicle is driven outside those parameters the end is crash. (Duduzane and the taxi) When the car is a 2019 model with a ton of electronics just to make it feel like the 80's model, the same control positions, steering wheel feel, pedal feel etc of the old car, the latest gazillion watt engine protruding from the bonnet, but still on the old 1980's chassis, that's asking for trouble.
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