Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by SimplyFly » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:52 pm

Swartbok wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:11 pm
...practically I found it virtually impossible.
Swartbok, to add to your argument: I think we will all agree that there is a big difference between being able to overcome the stick forces and being able to apply the fine control needed to stabilise the plane.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by mnmodels » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:55 pm

Wingnutter wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:34 pm
Unreliable airspeed on its own is a bit of a handful, especially when you have stick shakers / overspeed warnings going off - throw in an aeroplane that’s trying to trim the aeroplane to fly into the ground, and you’re looking at a very interesting day out indeed.

On the flip side, I would have thought that any 737 max crew would have the possibility of a trim runaway very much on their minds after the Lion Air crash and would have been on the stabiliser trim cutout switches at the first sign of anything amiss.
On Tuesday, Ethiopian Airlines CEO GebreMariam said that both pilots of Flight 302 had been trained and briefed on the FAA directive after the Lion Air crash.

"There was training" with emphasis "on MCAS and also on the flight controls in general," he said.
But the "similarities are substantial" in both accidents, GebreMariam said, adding that there are a lot of questions to be answered about the airplane.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Wlotzkas » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:49 pm

Please explain why a fauly aoa sensor would result in incorrect indicated airspeed indications?
Does the stick shaker and stall warning activate on aoa or ias? Or both?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by JCO7 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:26 pm

Wlotzkas wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:49 pm
Please explain why a fauly aoa sensor would result in incorrect indicated airspeed indications?
Does the stick shaker and stall warning activate on aoa or ias? Or both?
Stall warnings (stick shaker, feathers, speed tape indications) are generated by the Stall Management Yaw Damper (SMYD) systems, using many different inputs, amongst others alpha vane AoA, ADIRU, thrust and others.

The ADIRU collects data from the Air Data System and the IRS to compute altitude, airspeed, attitude, track and position. It uses inputs from the pitot and static probes through Air Data Modules, and also receives input from the alpha vane.

So it is an integrated system and frankly as a pilot I don't know enough about it to be able to troubleshoot what happened there in the case of these two accidents.

It is interesting though that on the Lion Air aircraft, the alpha vane was replaced the previous day following the erroneous stick shaker activation on the previous flight. But this did not seem to solve the problem. I would tend to lean towards there maybe being a gremlin in the ADIRU rather than a hardware problem with the alpha vane system. But time will tell.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:40 pm

sometimes we suffer a bit from C.R.A.F.T. sickness..Can't Remember A F@#%ing Thing

https://www.facebook.com/ralf.t.schulz
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by JCO7 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:57 pm

Romeo E.T. wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:40 pm
interesting article in the link

https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/14/boein ... he-pilots/
Very interesting read.

We're used to being able to oppose unwanted/runaway trim with opposite control column input. MCAS effectively overrides the pilot. Boeing aircraft has always been good at keeping the pilot in the loop and allowing us to override automatics easily and intuitively.

And not a word about the system in the FCOM.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by bear » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:05 pm

A number of days (and pages) ago I speculated that g forces may have played a role in all this. A lot of what has been said subsequently re-enforces that view. I would like to see what was actually experienced by the Lion air crew in that accident, in terms of control forces and g forces. Does anyone have that data?

Re the trim and resultant stick forces, at the end of January I had to land my L29 with faulty hydraulics. Don't want to hijack this by going of at a tangent, but there are similarities. I also have jackscrew operated all moving stabiliser, and with my fault condition, I ended up blowing down the gear and flap and living with out of trim for the landing. Having to fly and land the aircraft, untrimmable and fighting the stick, with only 2 greens ( so wanting to grease it) is stressful. And that's on an easy simple aircraft, with nowhere near the stick forces the crew on the MAX had to put up with.

I remain incredulous that Boeing could design such a system. I also do not understand why something MCAS is even desirable (and yes, I have read what the MCAS is designed to do and overcome).

The 737 already has multiple AOA indications, stall warnings, stick shakers etc. And we have professional air crew flying these aircraft. Not monkeys. What happened to flying?
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Tesla » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:21 pm


Crash investigators released the first picture of the black boxes from Ethiopian Airlines Flight ET302.


Image

source : https://www.pulse.ng/bi/lifestyle/this- ... es/mxhrbkx
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by mnmodels » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:33 am

Boing certified the MAX. Wow. All about the money and not safety.

Sorry i can not see how Boeing can rectify this. The design is bad. In my opinion the end of the 737. It needs new wings and fresh certification. Too high cost i would think. Putting paying public in a unstable airframe is no way forward.


Maybe the FAA should send out a mandatory AD : Placards to be fitted at each door and passenger seats. Warning - this aircraft is certified to be flown with MCAS system operated by a pilot. If MCAS fail, the pilot fail.

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Deanw » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:56 am

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/14/worl ... BBHAd0xcw1
Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

The captain of a doomed Ethiopian Airlines jetliner faced an emergency almost immediately after takeoff from Addis Ababa, requesting permission in a panicky voice to return after three minutes as the aircraft accelerated to abnormal speed, a person who reviewed air traffic communications said Thursday.

“Break break, request back to home,” the captain told air traffic controllers as they scrambled to divert two other flights approaching the airport. “Request vector for landing.”

Controllers also observed that the aircraft, a new Boeing 737 Max 8, was oscillating up and down by hundreds of feet — a sign that something was extraordinarily wrong.

All contact between air controllers and the aircraft, Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 to Nairobi, was lost five minutes after it took off on Sunday, the person said.

The person who shared the information, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the communications have not been publicly released, said the controllers had concluded even before the captain’s message that he had an emergency.

Image

The account of the cockpit communications shed chilling new detail about the final minutes before the plane crashed, killing all 157 people aboard. The crash, which has led to a worldwide grounding of Max 8s, was the second for the best-selling Boeing aircraft in less than five months.

Regulatory authorities in the United States and Canada say similar patterns in the trajectories of both planes may point to a common cause for the two crashes. But they cautioned that no explanation had been ruled out yet, and said the planes might have crashed for different reasons.

The new disclosures about the last moments of Flight 302 came as pilots were discussing what they described as the dangerously high speed of the aircraft after it took off from Addis Ababa’s Bole International Airport.
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Pilots were abuzz over publicly available radar data that showed the aircraft had accelerated far beyond what is considered standard practice, for reasons that remain unclear.

“The thing that is most abnormal is the speed,” said John Cox, an aviation safety consultant and former 737 pilot.

“The speed is very high,” said Mr. Cox, a former executive air safety chairman of the Air Line Pilots Association in the United States. “The question is why. The plane accelerates far faster than it should.”

Ethiopian Airlines officials have said the crew of Flight 302 reported “flight control” problems to air traffic controllers a few minutes before contact was lost. The new account of communications between air traffic controllers and the pilot, Yared Getachew, who had 8,000 hours of flying experience, provides much more information about what was happening in the cockpit.

Within one minute of Flight 302’s departure, the person who reviewed communications said, Captain Getachew reported a “flight control” problem in a calm voice. At that point, radar showed the aircraft’s altitude as being well below what is known as the minimum safe height from the ground during a climb.

Within two minutes, the person said, the plane had climbed to a safer altitude, and the pilot said he wanted to stay on a straight course to 14,000 feet.

Then the controllers observed the plane going up and down by hundreds of feet, and it appeared to be moving unusually fast, the person said. The controllers, the person said, “started wondering out loud what the flight was doing.”

Two other Ethiopian flights, 613 and 629, were approaching from the east, and the controllers, sensing an emergency on Flight 302, ordered them to remain at higher altitudes. It was during that exchange with the other planes, the person said, that Captain Getachew, with panic in his voice, interrupted with his request to turn back.

Flight 302 was just three minutes into its flight, the person said, and appeared to have accelerated to even higher speeds, well beyond its safety limits.

leared by the controllers to turn back, Flight 302 turned right as it climbed further. A minute later, it disappeared from the radar over a restricted military zone.

The disaster drew immediate comparisons to the October crash of another Boeing 737 Max 8, operated by Lion Air, in Indonesia. Both took place soon after takeoff, and the crews of both planes had sought to return to the airport.

The possibility that the two crashes had a similar cause was central to regulators’ decision to ground all 737 Maxes, a family of planes that entered passenger service less than two years ago.

After the Indonesia crash, a new flight-control system meant to keep the jet from stalling was suspected as a cause. In both cases, pilots struggled to control their aircraft.

The investigation of the Ethiopian crash is still in its early stages, and safety regulators have noted that it is too soon to draw conclusions about the cause. The so-called black boxes, voice and flight data recorders that contain more detailed information about the Ethiopian flight’s final moments, arrived in France on Thursday for analysis.

Since the Indonesia crash, Boeing has been working on a software update for the 737 Max jets, expected by April. But the company and the Federal Aviation Administration face new questions over whether there should have been more pilot training as airlines added the new models to their fleets.

On Wednesday, the chairman of the transportation committee in the House of Representatives said he would investigate the F.A.A.’s certification of the 737 Max, including why the regulator did not require more extensive training.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:48 am

A long read. It details the reports filed on the NASA ASRS or Aviation Safety Reporting System.
https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2019/ ... ax/584791/
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Blue Shirt » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:07 am

It seems that the jackscrew was located, set in a position to trim down.

https://mybroadband.co.za/news/trending ... -dive.html
A screw-like device found in the wreckage of the Boeing Co. 737 Max that crashed last Sunday in Ethiopia indicates the plane was configured to dive, a piece of evidence that helped convince U.S. regulators to ground the model, a person familiar with the investigation said late Thursday night.

Federal Aviation Administration chief Daniel Elwell on Wednesday cited unspecified evidence found at the crash scene as part of the justification for the agency to reverse course and temporarily halt flights of Boeing’s largest selling aircraft. Up until then, American regulators had held off as nation after nation had grounded the plane, Boeing’s best-selling jet model.

The piece of evidence was a so-called jackscrew, used to set the trim that raises and lowers the plane’s nose, according to the person, who requested anonymity to discuss the inquiry.

A preliminary review of the device and how it was configured at the time of the crash indicated that it was set to push down the nose, according to the person, who wasn’t authorized to speak publicly about the investigation.

The jackscrew, combined with a newly obtained satellite flight track of the plane, convinced the FAA that there were similarities to the Oct. 29 crash of the same Max model off the coast of Indonesia. In the earlier accident, a safety feature on the Boeing aircraft was repeatedly trying to put the plane into a dive as a result of a malfunction.

All 157 people aboard Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 died early Sunday shortly after the plane took off. The pilot reported an unspecified problem and was trying to return to the airport. The plane crashed near Addis Ababa, Ethiopia’s capital. The plane’s crash-proof recorders have been sent to France to be analyzed.

The discovery of the jackscrew was earlier reported by NBC News.
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by funfly » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:25 am

Relevant to the earlier post from Romeo ET - the article regarding that Boeing never informed anyone about the MCAS system.

Im not a test pilot nor have I ever conducted an Acceptance flight or a Functional test flight. But I would appreciate someones input that have conducted a new aircraft acceptance flight to what exactly would be checked and tested during an acceptance flight.

My thoughts are that surely a stick-shaker check or high AoA maneuver will be flown during this test flight to check the functions of these critical systems? Thus the recovery program of the MCAS system must have been triggered and/or experienced by these test pilots - and I suspect questions must have been asked.

Why would no one before the LionAir crash not now about this system then? Just doesn't make sense
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Slowstick » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:26 am

Not sure if this has been posted yet, if so please ignore

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... 7-Max.html
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by ijacobs3 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:43 am

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