Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

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Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by Upthere » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:43 pm

This has been in the making a while now ...

http://avherald.com/h?article=4c9fb488&opt=0

Not sure if the Comair Crew even knew about this?
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:16 pm

heard about this one, but no-one was talking

Intersection "N" takeoff's for Rny21R has been a repeated ground collision point for many years.

I recal seeing a SAX Dash8-300 with a tailplane lying on the taxiway, after an A340 went cruising past.

That intersection should be "unavailable" for take off, it takes 30 seconds longer to taxi to full length.

I wonder at what point the Comair crew were made aware of the impact ?....halfway to Dbn already ?
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by stoney727 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:50 am

Wow, something is not making sense.
You taxi out for departure, hit another aircraft and return to parking without saying anything to the other aircraft or ground control. Or maybe they did say something and Comair elected to carry on............

Me thinks the red carpet must be rolled out for this one, some serious talks needs to be held with both crews.
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by ddevos » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:32 am

stoney727 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:50 am
Wow, something is not making sense.
You taxi out for departure, hit another aircraft and return to parking without saying anything to the other aircraft or ground control. Or maybe they did say something and Comair elected to carry on............

Me thinks the red carpet must be rolled out for this one, some serious talks needs to be held with both crews.
Two of the comments on that article, telling me the Comair crew might not have known what happened:
So they said, ground we need to return to the apron, can't tell you why.
The mango was still on ground 121.9 and the Comair on tower 118.1 ready for the departure. The Mango suspected they touched and returned to the bay but never informed the Comair. Not acceptable behaviour by the Mango.
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by TxT » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:37 pm

Romeo E.T. wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:16 pm

That intersection should be "unavailable" for take off, it takes 30 seconds longer to taxi to full length.
What priority allocation for departure does ATC use when there is an queue at both intersection N and the threshold? Is it possible for an aircraft arriving at an empty intersection N, with other aircraft already waiting at the threshold, to get take off clearance before an aircraft second in the queue at the threshold, which had already been waiting before the first aircraft arrived at the intersection?
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:47 pm

TxT wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:37 pm
Romeo E.T. wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:16 pm

That intersection should be "unavailable" for take off, it takes 30 seconds longer to taxi to full length.
What priority allocation for departure does ATC use when there is an queue at both intersection N and the threshold? Is it possible for an aircraft arriving at an empty intersection N, with other aircraft already waiting at the threshold, to get take off clearance before an aircraft second in the queue at the threshold, which had already been waiting before the first aircraft arrived at the intersection?
I think that depends on ATC and the direction of turn out (sector) into which the aircraft is departing into
5 departures all waiting to turn SW towards the Cape, requires spacing and planning, squeezing in an "out of sequence" opposite direction departure to the Lowveld would easily be slotted in
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by Diesel-3 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:21 pm

The mango was still on ground 121.9 and the Comair on tower 118.1 ready for the departure. The Mango suspected they touched and returned to the bay but never informed the Comair. Not acceptable behaviour by the Mango.
If that is in fact true, it’s criminal
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by Allison 501D13H » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:36 pm

How come this potentially catastrophic incident/accident has been so quiet?
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by Walter105 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:11 pm

Diesel-3 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:21 pm
The mango was still on ground 121.9 and the Comair on tower 118.1 ready for the departure. The Mango suspected they touched and returned to the bay but never informed the Comair. Not acceptable behaviour by the Mango.
If that is in fact true, it’s criminal
Hey we may have knocked the Comair, but let them continue, we'll taxi back and have our plane checked, nevermind if the tail on the Comair is broken...

This is as serious an incident as you could get. What if that Comair had serious structural damage and was left to take off without warning and ended up having the tail seperate somewhere in flight? :shock:
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:26 pm

Walter105 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:11 pm
Diesel-3 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:21 pm
The mango was still on ground 121.9 and the Comair on tower 118.1 ready for the departure. The Mango suspected they touched and returned to the bay but never informed the Comair. Not acceptable behaviour by the Mango.
If that is in fact true, it’s criminal
Hey we may have knocked the Comair, but let them continue, we'll taxi back and have our plane checked, nevermind if the tail on the Comair is broken...

This is as serious an incident as you could get. What if that Comair had serious structural damage and was left to take off without warning and ended up having the tail seperate somewhere in flight? :shock:
in reply to the "bold" portion

What if ? (think aloud)

ATC - ground controller was too slow to communicate to his/her colleague manning the TWR frequency, the urgency of the situation.
Or the TWR controller had already issued the take off clearance by the time the Mango communicated the impact with the ground controller

I think that timing (terrible timing) and separate frequencies had all the ingredients leading up to the Comair departing.
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:35 pm

I am still of the opinion that either :
1) No intersection "N" takeoff's allowed
2) If "N" intersection is allowed then there should be a "Taxiway HOLD" on "A" before "N" in force...."A" should be considered blocked

it takes a mere extra 30 seconds to taxi to full length.
and RNY 21R hold has the facility to sequence flights, by virtue of Dual Holding points
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by Walter105 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:23 pm

Romeo E.T. wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:26 pm
Walter105 wrote:
Sat Jul 27, 2019 7:11 pm
Diesel-3 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:21 pm


If that is in fact true, it’s criminal
Hey we may have knocked the Comair, but let them continue, we'll taxi back and have our plane checked, nevermind if the tail on the Comair is broken...

This is as serious an incident as you could get. What if that Comair had serious structural damage and was left to take off without warning and ended up having the tail seperate somewhere in flight? :shock:
in reply to the "bold" portion

What if ? (think aloud)

ATC - ground controller was too slow to communicate to his/her colleague manning the TWR frequency, the urgency of the situation.
Or the TWR controller had already issued the take off clearance by the time the Mango communicated the impact with the ground controller

I think that timing (terrible timing) and separate frequencies had all the ingredients leading up to the Comair departing.
Very valid points RET.
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by Taildraggerdriver » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:21 pm

I smell a serious investigation brewing
If there was substantial damage (which apparently there was) then there will be liability issues, and the underwriters will be banging the table.
That N intersection is tricky, I remember the incident Schultz is referring to.
Kinda hard to thing that 2 737’s could be a issue though, unless one wasn’t on the taxiway centre line,
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by MemyselfandI » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:27 pm

The pic posted above is NOT twy N. Twy N is further south.
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Re: Comair and Mango Intersection N RWY 21R

Unread post by FoxTROT » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:53 pm

MemyselfandI wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:27 pm
The pic posted above is NOT twy N. Twy N is further south.
Correct, it’s this one
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