SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

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SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by sparky1608 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:35 am

Heard Express 766 call Pan Pan Pan on radar yesterday just after 11:30 saying they had a right hand gear issue.
Anyone have any more info on what was wrong?
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:48 pm

Sorry I can't answer your question, but PAN is such a feeble thing to call. What's the point? Maybe it is short for PANSY.

If you have a life threatening emergency - go for MAYDAY - particularly it you believe someone can help. Or simply declare an emergency. And if you are working on a problem, like a stuck undercarriage leg, then say so.

I really don't see a place for PAN in today's environment.

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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by JCA » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:33 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:48 pm
Sorry I can't answer your question, but PAN is such a feeble thing to call. What's the point? Maybe it is short for PANSY.

If you have a life threatening emergency - go for MAYDAY - particularly it you believe someone can help. Or simply declare an emergency. And if you are working on a problem, like a stuck undercarriage leg, then say so.

I really don't see a place for PAN in today's environment.

jim
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by Beacon1 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:28 pm

Uncle Jim,

Could the PAN perhaps not have related to the fact that perhaps they required priority with a particular area to hold to run checklists, problem shoot etc? Perhaps they needed to fly a set speed and whilst under Radar control perhaps ATC would have required a speed different to what they required to conform to the flow pattern. Surely having announced the PAN call it would draw the required attention to them and bought them time to follow their procedures and focus on the task at hand?

At that point it was not life threatening, however in the event that they could not have sorted the issue out and had a full on gear related emergency landing on their hands, then they could upgrade the PAN to a MAYDAY call?

I ask this as it is different where I live, if you declare a MAYDAY, highways near the airport are closed, all non priority elective surgeries are placed on hold, all hospitals prepare for the worst case scenario of having to deal with multiple casualties. A lot of emergency procedures commence within the region, therefore if danger is not imminent, rather alert ATC with a PAN, upgrade it when it becomes life threatening. Obviously certain criteria would call for an immediate MAYDAY call such as engine fires, flight control issues that may not permit a safe flight attitude etc.

Obviously either call could be followed with a short description of the issue.

It is interesting to hear the different perspectives on this.

Best regards,
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by Anton Nel » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:36 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:48 pm
Sorry I can't answer your question, but PAN is such a feeble thing to call. What's the point? Maybe it is short for PANSY.

If you have a life threatening emergency - go for MAYDAY - particularly it you believe someone can help. Or simply declare an emergency. And if you are working on a problem, like a stuck undercarriage leg, then say so.

I really don't see a place for PAN in today's environment.

jim
Not going into details for the sake of the tragedy.
I remember visiting an air show where the pilot called PAN-PAN-PAN because he detected a hydraulic issue on his aircraft. It was the initial call to get emergency teams ready while he was working the problem. Unfortunately the PAN never turned into a Mayday. Should he have just immediately called a Mayday, or call a PAN first to assess the severity of the problem?

"The radio-telephony message PAN-PAN is the international standard urgency signal that someone aboard a boat, ship, aircraft, or other vehicle uses to declare that they have a situation that is urgent, but for the time being, does not pose an immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself. This is referred to as a state of urgency. This is distinct from a mayday call (distress signal), which means that there is imminent danger to life or to the continued viability of the vessel itself. Radioing pan-pan informs potential rescuers (including emergency services and other craft in the area) that an urgent problem exists, whereas mayday calls on them to drop all other activities and immediately begin a rescue."
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:49 pm

Anton Nel wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:36 pm
jimdavis wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:48 pm
Sorry I can't answer your question, but PAN is such a feeble thing to call. What's the point? Maybe it is short for PANSY.

If you have a life threatening emergency - go for MAYDAY - particularly it you believe someone can help. Or simply declare an emergency. And if you are working on a problem, like a stuck undercarriage leg, then say so.

I really don't see a place for PAN in today's environment.

jim
Not going into details for the sake of the tragedy.
I remember visiting an air show where the pilot called PAN-PAN-PAN because he detected a hydraulic issue on his aircraft. It was the initial call to get emergency teams ready while he was working the problem. Unfortunately the PAN never turned into a Mayday. Should he have just immediately called a Mayday, or call a PAN first to assess the severity of the problem?

"The radio-telephony message PAN-PAN is the international standard urgency signal that someone aboard a boat, ship, aircraft, or other vehicle uses to declare that they have a situation that is urgent, but for the time being, does not pose an immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself. This is referred to as a state of urgency. This is distinct from a mayday call (distress signal), which means that there is imminent danger to life or to the continued viability of the vessel itself. Radioing pan-pan informs potential rescuers (including emergency services and other craft in the area) that an urgent problem exists, whereas mayday calls on them to drop all other activities and immediately begin a rescue."
I am sure you are technically correct Anton. It just seems a bit over the top to use a PAN call when you can simply tell ATC that you have a problem and you would like to hold over XYZ while you sort it out.

Perhaps traffic density would cause me to use PAN. But imagine using it at some remote spot where is no other traffic. :lol:

jim
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by Anton Nel » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:51 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:49 pm

I am sure you are technically correct Anton. It just seems a bit over the top to use a PAN call when you can simply tell ATC that you have a problem and you would like to hold over XYZ while you sort it out.

Perhaps traffic density would cause me to use PAN. But imagine using it at some remote spot where is no other traffic. :lol:

jim
I hear you 100% uncle Jim. I agree a PAN call over the Atlantic at 38,000ft might not bear the same weight as a PAN call after take-off from lets say JFK, it does however pop the ears up and make people take note immediately, without overload of information.
Is the general rule not aviate, navigate, communicate? Maybe a PAN call to alert instead of a discussion while the PIC and FO is working the issue might just be the seconds needed to make a difference between a good day and a bad day. :wink:

Maybe calling a PAN in a remote spot might not be completely in the blind. The pilot might just be lucky that some fellow pilot hears the call and can assist. Sort of rather call and not be heard that not call and not be heard...if you catch my drift?
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by Allison 501D13H » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:58 pm

With all due respect Jim, and I mean that in the most respectful way possible. Your knowledge and contribution to aviation in SA, especially GA will grant you hall of fame membership. We thank you. But, I beg to differ with the ‘PANSY’ comment. There is a very real time and place for that urgency message. Let me use an example at your 43 Airschool, about 20years ago, a solo student pilot got airborne at FAPA, and declared “pan pan, pan pan, pan pan, my bonnet has come off. Fellow instructors, and the cadet Atc helped him because of that ‘pansy’ message. I thought it was appropriately used under the circumstances. We still train the Pan call at airline level. ATns need to hear that word when safety is at risk.
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:12 pm

Allison 501D13H wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:58 pm
With all due respect Jim, and I mean that in the most respectful way possible. Your knowledge and contribution to aviation in SA, especially GA will grant you hall of fame membership. We thank you. But, I beg to differ with the ‘PANSY’ comment. There is a very real time and place for that urgency message. Let me use an example at your 43 Airschool, about 20years ago, a solo student pilot got airborne at FAPA, and declared “pan pan, pan pan, pan pan, my bonnet has come off. Fellow instructors, and the cadet Atc helped him because of that ‘pansy’ message. I thought it was appropriately used under the circumstances. We still train the Pan call at airline level. ATns need to hear that word when safety is at risk.
Ha ha ha. Okay Guys and girls I consider myself outvoted - but I will not PANick. 8-[ :lol: :lol: :lol:

jim
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by homebuilt » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:28 pm

There is another important reason why the words Pan-pan are used. Firstly to get everyone's attention and secondly, and very importantly, to stop any unnecessary conversations between aircraft and / or control areas. If one just says that there is a situation aboard an aircraft, others will use the opportunity to get out their messages. Once the words Pan-pan are used however, it is meant to focus everyones attention on the aircraft that has a problem so that the subsequent message, when sent, will be heard by many and the necessary action can be taken by the relevant person/s in order to assist where necessary. That could mean for someone to get eyeballs on the aircraft in trouble, or get out of the way or whatever action is necessary in order to get the best outcome for the pilot in trouble.
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by jimdavis » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:23 pm

homebuilt wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:28 pm
Once the words Pan-pan are used however, it is meant to focus everyones attention on the aircraft that has a problem so that the subsequent message, when sent, will be heard by many and the necessary action can be taken by the relevant person/s in order to assist where necessary. That could mean for someone to get eyeballs on the aircraft in trouble, or get out of the way or whatever action is necessary in order to get the best outcome for the pilot in trouble.
That's exactly what is is meant for. But I recall a recent case where a MAYDAY call attracted so much chatter that the distress aircraft was unable to get it's message out.

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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by Flyman » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:21 am

My take on this is should the situation be not life threatening then PAN and if life threatening then MAYDAY. However escalation in this case is is possible. Call MAYDAY and the problem is resolved. Then what.
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by Dragon » Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:06 pm

The official call is:
“Pan-Pan Pan-Pan Pan-Pan”
but modern (unofficial I might add) thinking is that:
“Pan Pan Pan”
is acceptable.

My feeling is that although I understand it’s French origins, I like to see brevity esp in times of urgency, so in a vote I would choose the latter. What is the feeling on the floor?
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by homebuilt » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:19 pm

Every piece of aviation literature regarding this says Pan, pan, Pan. The marine literature still says Pan-pan, Pan-pan, Pan-pan. I wonder if it has something to do with the time one has when such an emergency occurrs or maybe to keep things aviation short. We still teach Pan-pan (x3) when we teach the marine radio licence course.
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Re: SAX Pan call 1 Aug 2019

Unread post by Dragon » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:45 pm

homebuilt wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:19 pm
Every piece of aviation literature regarding this says Pan, pan, Pan. The marine literature still says Pan-pan, Pan-pan, Pan-pan. I wonder if it has something to do with the time one has when such an emergency occurrs or maybe to keep things aviation short. We still teach Pan-pan (x3) when we teach the marine radio licence course.
Maybe in the CATS but I had a quick look further afield and the literature is all over the place about it.

Take a look at ICAO doc4444 for example
15.2.3.1 has Pan-Pan x3
15.2.2.2 ditto
But chapter 15 tableA5-21 has Pan Pan Pan
Yet 15.2.3.1 has Pan-Pan x3
Our CATS 91.06.13 Pan Pan Pan
The more you look the more you find examples of each.

Wish we could simplify and standardise it-
Pan Pan Pan is already enough repetition and gets the message across.

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