Crash Springs

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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by FoxTROT » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:27 pm

Glide approach gone wrong?
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by Mikemccrsa » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm

richard C wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:35 am
Do Piper pilots pull the carb-heat on downwind and base ? Always ?

I know that Jim talks about the superior design of the Piper because the carb continually scavenges heat from the engine near which it was cleverly placed, but does that effect the training ?
I was definitely taught to use the carb heat on downwind and base, close on short final in preparation for a go-around.
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by Christo » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:12 pm

Mikemccrsa wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm
richard C wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:35 am
Do Piper pilots pull the carb-heat on downwind and base ? Always ?

I know that Jim talks about the superior design of the Piper because the carb continually scavenges heat from the engine near which it was cleverly placed, but does that effect the training ?
I was definitely taught to use the carb heat on downwind and base, close on short final in preparation for a go-around.
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by ACE MAN » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:36 pm

There is a home camera video on social media , basically landing short. Might just be me but I have flown most my light aircraft flying over the last 30 years in that region in all varying weather and never had carb icing? Mostly with O320 engines. A good friend of mine was killed just a block back from today’s accident while he was a passenger in a BE23 off rwy 21, hot high and tailwind takeoff. I was the one to take the call at JNB ATC. So it would appear today’s is an engine failure if sorts.
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by Kibim » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:38 pm

ACE MAN wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:36 pm
There is a home camera video on social media , basically landing short. Might just be me but I have flown most my light aircraft flying over the last 30 years in that region in all varying weather and never had carb icing? Mostly with O320 engines. A good friend of mine was killed just a block back from today’s accident while he was a passenger in a BE23 off rwy 21, hot high and tailwind takeoff. I was the one to take the call at JNB ATC. So it would appear today’s is an engine failure if sorts.
Lets hope it didn't suffer the same fate at it's cousin, ZS-EXV did in 2016, catastrophic engine failure. Unfortunately the instructor and student were not so lucky on that occasion.
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by Hunter » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:44 pm

richard C wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:35 am
Do Piper pilots pull the carb-heat on downwind and base ? Always ?

I know that Jim talks about the superior design of the Piper because the carb continually scavenges heat from the engine near which it was cleverly placed, but does that effect the training ?
Part of my drills yes.
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by ACE MAN » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:49 pm

Kibim wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:38 pm
ACE MAN wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:36 pm
There is a home camera video on social media , basically landing short. Might just be me but I have flown most my light aircraft flying over the last 30 years in that region in all varying weather and never had carb icing? Mostly with O320 engines. A good friend of mine was killed just a block back from today’s accident while he was a passenger in a BE23 off rwy 21, hot high and tailwind takeoff. I was the one to take the call at JNB ATC. So it would appear today’s is an engine failure if sorts.
Lets hope it didn't suffer the same fate at it's cousin, ZS-EXV did in 2016, catastrophic engine failure. Unfortunately the instructor and student were not so lucky on that occasion.
And EXO ! I did 50% of my PPL on that at FASI!

My Question here to Jim or anyone else who has extensive hours (2000hr plus) on O320’s - have you EVER had carb ice that is so bad that the engine has failed? To have it at the point where you need to add power on the approach is extremely unforgiving.
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:23 pm

ACE MAN wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:49 pm


And EXO ! I did 50% of my PPL on that at FASI!

My Question here to Jim or anyone else who has extensive hours (2000hr plus) on O320’s - have you EVER had carb ice that is so bad that the engine has failed? To have it at the point where you need to add power on the approach is extremely unforgiving.
over 3000 hrs on O320's and O360's
not once experienced carb icing

have however heard of the mythical inducing carb icing , when applying carb heat, but not self experienced or heard of
The worst I have ever encountered is a momentarily spluttering engine (Cessna) which I , at the time, I explained to myself, as partial carb icing being cleared and ingested thru the engine.
but never on a Piper (touch wood)

Didn't this early morning start of very moist (humid) after last nights weather that passed thru (mainly north of Gauteng) ?
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:33 pm

PJL wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:53 am
richard C wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:35 am
Do Piper pilots pull the carb-heat on downwind and base ? Always ?
I was taught when turning base. I am so glad that my aerie is fuel injected!!

PJL
Yes...me too (mainly instructed on PA28's
Always taught my students the application of carb heat with the reduction of power on base leg.
Always taught my students to close carb heat once established on final approach.
Taught the carb heat mainly as an accepted procedure, rather than any actual evidence or occurance.
without a TAT probe in the throttle body of the carburetor, it is a "hit and miss" affair on whether to use carb heat or if the use of carb heat might actually raise the temperature into the carb icing range

Remember an idling engine produces very little heat to significantly "MELT" any carb icing, thus carb heat should be deployed whilst the engine is producing heat (power), before reduction of power
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by savas » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:54 pm

Carb heat should be applied ok downwind, base then off as one turns finals- in my opinion
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by spokes » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:02 pm

Pipers mainly use Lycomings and they have the carburettor in the oil sump to prevent ice forming. I have had ice in a Tripacer out of Rustenburg on the climb out but a dash of carb heat and then some splutter and all was fine again.
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by jimdavis » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:27 pm

Romeo E.T. wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:23 pm
ACE MAN wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:49 pm


And EXO ! I did 50% of my PPL on that at FASI!

My Question here to Jim or anyone else who has extensive hours (2000hr plus) on O320’s - have you EVER had carb ice that is so bad that the engine has failed? To have it at the point where you need to add power on the approach is extremely unforgiving.
over 3000 hrs on O320's and O360's
not once experienced carb icing

have however heard of the mythical inducing carb icing , when applying carb heat, but not self experienced or heard of
The worst I have ever encountered is a momentarily spluttering engine (Cessna) which I , at the time, I explained to myself, as partial carb icing being cleared and ingested thru the engine.
but never on a Piper (touch wood)

Didn't this early morning start of very moist (humid) after last nights weather that passed thru (mainly north of Gauteng) ?
I am with you Schultzie I have NEVER experienced airborne carb icing on an O320 or an O360.

However, taxying out on the first flight of the day with a cold engine and wet grass - YES it is very common - and mostly goes unnoticed. The pupe or pilot just adds a bit more power. You will notice it if you throttle fully back, then you realise the engine idles too slowly, or even wants to die.

After five minutes, or less, of ground running the sump has warmed sufficiently to warm the throttle body and that's the end of any ice.

So, no - I really can't support the carb icing theory for this accident.

jim
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by homebuilt » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:57 am

If the majority of experienced pilots think carb icing is NOT to blame what then about this scenario. Firstly I dont know the field from a bar of soap, circuit size or altitude or whether the pilot and pupe were flying circuits or had just returned from a cross country but what if the pilot flying selected the incorrect tank ( the emptier on of the two) on downwind and the fuel pipe ported on base to final turn leaving them on finals with a windmilling prop. By the time one had a chance to trouble shoot the aircraft would have been low and short of the field.
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by BigglesSA » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:02 am

VID-20191111-WA0004.mp4
Seems to be coming in very steep?
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Re: Crash Springs

Unread post by richard C » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:29 am

Wow - not much of a flare, lucky they were not more seriously hurt.

I wonder if they chose to hit the road hard, instead of the concrete fence structure more slowly ? If so, they did a good job - they flew into the crash and walked away.
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