Light Plane Crash Miami

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TikkaT3
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by TikkaT3 » Fri May 20, 2022 10:10 am

spatz wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 12:39 am
Airwayfreak wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:01 pm
jimdavis wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:17 am

Chill Airwayfreak. Are you saying you can't believe anyone would have a view that differs from yours?
jim
No Jim, contrary to popular belief, I am quite open to listening to everybody's views. If you can convince me that your view is correct, I will gladly change my perspective, People that actually know me will attest to this. The reason things seem to slow down is because the brain shuts down to filter out all extraneous "noise" to focus on the job on hand which is to try and land the aircraft in a state conducive to being able to walk away from it. Everybody handles the same situation differently, so to judge the poor pilot for landing on the highway is really harsh.

But you should know that by now. I am surprised that we are still debating that hindsight is an exact science. That is what I was saying
Why is it hindsight , i would say its foresight we should all be using , when i fly i make sure i have between 3 and 5 options to land in my head, before i fly i will spend 30 mins watching the take offs and landings to see if there is any strange phenomena on the approaches , i will also ask pilots who have flown that day what the conditions are, i have more than once put the fully fueled and di'd aircraft back in the hanger based on the info i have received or perceived, if you are thinking along those lines then when the inevitable happens you just much better prepared for it,

I really dont know why people are defending this pilots decision,
So you know exactly when your engine is going to fail on your 3hr cross country?
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by spatz » Fri May 20, 2022 10:15 am

TikkaT3 wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 10:10 am
spatz wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 12:39 am
Airwayfreak wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:01 pm


No Jim, contrary to popular belief, I am quite open to listening to everybody's views. If you can convince me that your view is correct, I will gladly change my perspective, People that actually know me will attest to this. The reason things seem to slow down is because the brain shuts down to filter out all extraneous "noise" to focus on the job on hand which is to try and land the aircraft in a state conducive to being able to walk away from it. Everybody handles the same situation differently, so to judge the poor pilot for landing on the highway is really harsh.

But you should know that by now. I am surprised that we are still debating that hindsight is an exact science. That is what I was saying
Why is it hindsight , i would say its foresight we should all be using , when i fly i make sure i have between 3 and 5 options to land in my head, before i fly i will spend 30 mins watching the take offs and landings to see if there is any strange phenomena on the approaches , i will also ask pilots who have flown that day what the conditions are, i have more than once put the fully fueled and di'd aircraft back in the hanger based on the info i have received or perceived, if you are thinking along those lines then when the inevitable happens you just much better prepared for it,

I really dont know why people are defending this pilots decision,
So you know exactly when your engine is going to fail on your 3hr cross country?
Not at all and show me where ii said i did , however i fly and adjust my flight path to give me the best options, this is all basic flight training i don't kno0w why you are finding it so hard to accept.
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Fri May 20, 2022 11:07 am

spatz wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 12:39 am

Why is it hindsight , i would say its foresight we should all be using , when i fly i make sure i have between 3 and 5 options to land in my head, before i fly i will spend 30 mins watching the take offs and landings to see if there is any strange phenomena on the approaches , i will also ask pilots who have flown that day what the conditions are, i have more than once put the fully fueled and di'd aircraft back in the hanger based on the info i have received or perceived, if you are thinking along those lines then when the inevitable happens you just much better prepared for it,

I really dont know why people are defending this pilots decision,
I see your perspective. I see discussing this particular incident as hindsight because whatever the pilot did, he would be criticised from one or other quarter. Had he ditched the aitrcraft I can almost guarantee that somebody will say he should have landed on the highway. We are analysing the pilot's actions in hindsight. I agree that we should prepare for all possible scenarios, but we are discussing one specific course of action followed by this pilot.
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by spatz » Fri May 20, 2022 11:54 am

Airwayfreak wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 11:07 am
spatz wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 12:39 am

Why is it hindsight , i would say its foresight we should all be using , when i fly i make sure i have between 3 and 5 options to land in my head, before i fly i will spend 30 mins watching the take offs and landings to see if there is any strange phenomena on the approaches , i will also ask pilots who have flown that day what the conditions are, i have more than once put the fully fueled and di'd aircraft back in the hanger based on the info i have received or perceived, if you are thinking along those lines then when the inevitable happens you just much better prepared for it,

I really dont know why people are defending this pilots decision,
I see your perspective. I see discussing this particular incident as hindsight because whatever the pilot did, he would be criticised from one or other quarter. Had he ditched the aircraft I can almost guarantee that somebody will say he should have landed on the highway. We are analysing the pilot's actions in hindsight. I agree that we should prepare for all possible scenarios, but we are discussing one specific course of action followed by this pilot.
That's fair for sure but we cant work out in hindsight what he was thinking , maybe his passengers will shed some light on it , however if this individuals passing makes one or two people rethink highways as a viable EF option then that will be a positive , sadly as you say , people will do it and get away with it and be lauded as hero's. whereas they should be taken to task as to why they put others at risk. and more people will do it, ps we are focussing on highways here , but the recent ditching in the sea of the warbird over people swimming and the landing on the beach of the SEP killing the innocent guy walking along minding his own business spring to mind.
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Fri May 20, 2022 12:02 pm

I don't know if its just a recent spate or whatever but I seem to be seeing a number of successful highway landings lately. This one sadly went wrong.

There are so many variables at play in a forced landing so choosing the 100% best option that will please everybody is such a huge call when in the unenviable situation that this guy was in. Truly tough call he had to make
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by B206King » Fri May 20, 2022 12:41 pm

Airwayfreak, all pilots will be put under pressure in determining the best outcome in the event of any emergency. Thats instinct. However, if you have a look on Google Earth at the location of the accident, one must surely wonder why the pilot decided to carry out a forced landing at that point. Considering the beach, ocean, channels, Im sure most would agree that these choices would have provided the greatest chance of a satisfactory outcome. Re the safety/surety of such landings, frankly, if one lands a C172 flaps up, out the white arc, doors latched, harnesses loose, nil position reporting, nil consideration/demonstration toward the "expected" procedures a proficient pilot would/should have demonstrated, then one cannot in the first place anticipate a good outcome, nor should one be surprised at the end result of this landing. No matter who was behind the controls.
It boggles my mind someone would be that brave/confident to land on that bridge. I wonder if the praise would have been the same as some have suggested, if the pilot survived.
If so, and someone in the future does manage a successful outcome in a similar scenario, I for one wouldnt give praise, but to those who survived the poor decision.

Im sure you are aware of ANC. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
Im sure you would agree regarding an accident/incident; Survivability, Mobility, Aircraft serviceability and property usability.

Condolences to the pilot and his family.
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Fri May 20, 2022 1:41 pm

B206King wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 12:41 pm
Airwayfreak, all pilots will be put under pressure in determining the best outcome in the event of any emergency. Thats instinct. However, if you have a look on Google Earth at the location of the accident, one must surely wonder why the pilot decided to carry out a forced landing at that point. Considering the beach, ocean, channels, Im sure most would agree that these choices would have provided the greatest chance of a satisfactory outcome. Re the safety/surety of such landings, frankly, if one lands a C172 flaps up, out the white arc, doors latched, harnesses loose, nil position reporting, nil consideration/demonstration toward the "expected" procedures a proficient pilot would/should have demonstrated, then one cannot in the first place anticipate a good outcome, nor should one be surprised at the end result of this landing. No matter who was behind the controls.
It boggles my mind someone would be that brave/confident to land on that bridge. I wonder if the praise would have been the same as some have suggested, if the pilot survived.
If so, and someone in the future does manage a successful outcome in a similar scenario, I for one wouldnt give praise, but to those who survived the poor decision.

Im sure you are aware of ANC. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
Im sure you would agree regarding an accident/incident; Survivability, Mobility, Aircraft serviceability and property usability.

Condolences to the pilot and his family.
It reminds me of the urban legend of the pilot who followed his instructors advice about aiming his aircraft between two trees during a forced landing so that the wings would collide with trees and absorb the collisional energy thus saving the fuselage. The instructor then pointed out that they were the only two trees within 100nM in the prefectly flat field.
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri May 20, 2022 1:48 pm

If that simulated visual is reasonably accurate there's no question I would have headed straight for the beach without giving it a second thought.

Once you get lower you can sort out whether there is a clear bit of beach or water without swimmers. Hell with full flap you are going to touch down at 45 mph - it's really very easy compared with a highway. I don't know what was going on in that guy's head.

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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by Volo » Fri May 20, 2022 5:09 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:48 pm
If that simulated visual is reasonably accurate there's no question I would have headed straight for the beach without giving it a second thought.

Once you get lower you can sort out whether there is a clear bit of beach or water without swimmers. Hell with full flap you are going to touch down at 45 mph - it's really very easy compared with a highway. I don't know what was going on in that guy's head.

jim
.....................................
Absolute no brainer - The beach would have been my decision in less than a second and as you say Jim the water if their were people on the sand .
He might have assessed that there was no traffic on the road but the reality is that changes very quickly .
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by Wayne Boonzaier » Fri May 20, 2022 7:27 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 6:55 pm
spatz wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 5:51 pm
Walter105 wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 12:36 pm
Sad. Don't know what the situation and decision making was but I wonder if the channel/river under the bridge would not have been a better option to ditch into than try land on the bridge between traffic.
Personally i think its pure selfishness to land on a road with any traffic in the event of an emergency , you are giving the road users no warning and they will definitely not be prepared, same with emergency beach and waterfront landings , unless you can absolutely guarantee that you will not hit a bystander then chose an option that does, I feel for the lady and the toddlers in that car and its a testament to the strength and crash testing that they survived.
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I am with you 100% Keven. You don't make decisions about other people's lives in order to save your own neck.

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We all know that a pilots life is much more valuable than a ground hogs life , you can wipe then out 12 to one , squash them by the dozens on the beach if you have to , to save yourself and the airplane,
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri May 20, 2022 7:51 pm

Wayne Boonzaier wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:27 pm
jimdavis wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 6:55 pm
spatz wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 5:51 pm


Personally i think its pure selfishness to land on a road with any traffic in the event of an emergency , you are giving the road users no warning and they will definitely not be prepared, same with emergency beach and waterfront landings , unless you can absolutely guarantee that you will not hit a bystander then chose an option that does, I feel for the lady and the toddlers in that car and its a testament to the strength and crash testing that they survived.
Keven
I am with you 100% Keven. You don't make decisions about other people's lives in order to save your own neck.

jim
We all know that a pilots life is much more valuable than a ground hogs life , you can wipe then out 12 to one , squash them by the dozens on the beach if you have to , to save yourself and the airplane,
Wayne, perhaps a little smilie at the end of that might have brightened it up a bit. :D

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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by TikkaT3 » Sat May 21, 2022 7:54 am

jimdavis wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:48 pm
If that simulated visual is reasonably accurate there's no question I would have headed straight for the beach without giving it a second thought.

Once you get lower you can sort out whether there is a clear bit of beach or water without swimmers. Hell with full flap you are going to touch down at 45 mph - it's really very easy compared with a highway. I don't know what was going on in that guy's head.

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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by richard C » Sat May 21, 2022 10:08 am

I am amazed at the lack of medical care for the two passengers. Was that a cop or a security guard walking around looking tough and talking to his mates on the walkie-talkie ?

That was some of the slackest and most apathetic response I have seen. Either passenger could have had internal injuries and been in immediate danger.

I see the passengers escaped the cabin as fast as possible, I wonder they didn't make any attempt to try to save the pilot in those first few moments.
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by southside » Sat May 21, 2022 7:51 pm

Unless you are 100% sure you will not hit someone, like in the middle of the Karoo on a rural road, don’t pick a road.

Don’t make your problem an innocent bystanders.

I find it humorous when pilots brief the N1 highway or the likes as an EFATO option. It’s poor airmanship to jeopardise others who have nothing to do with your unfortunate predicament. Don’t do it.

I cannot comment on this exact accident as I was not there and don’t know the exact circumstances. My comment is just that. An observation.
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Re: Light Plane Crash Miami

Unread post by flyingeeza » Sat May 21, 2022 8:21 pm

spatz wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:38 pm
Because piss poor planning of the flight gave him no back door , were you not taught to fly and plan for when not if the engine fails.
[/quote]

Have you ever taken off from Rand Airport in a real aeroplane?
[/quote]

A valid question (except for the "real" part)...I fly both microlights and spamcans, and both are real aeroplanes. You can really, and indeed swiftly, die in either type.

I did much of my PPL out of Rand (usually out of runway 11) as well as my complex training and sign-off in a Turbo Arrow 4 namely ZS-KTA. Retracts, VP prop, turbocharged and fuel injected. A proper handfull! (heavy elevator but the electric trim helped with the flare though :D )

But if my engine had ever quit I can tell you I would have had a choice of either a mine dump or some residential roadway to plonk it onto at 70mph.

Sometimes fate is indeed the hunter and people will get hurt or die.
It is their time. If it wasn't their time the engine wouldn't have croaked.

Real world emergencies in a 1 ton spamcan are a lot different to a diddy little 582 going quiet on you, (got that T-shirt too) and then your 270 kg rag 'n tube airframe hits a car or something at 40mph?

Big difference. Please don't judge until you've been there, or very close to there yourself.

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