Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by HJK 414 » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:38 pm

AOYB wrote:The 1900 is easier to fly than the piston twins. But what do I know, I only have 9.6 piston twin hours and 2400 b190 hours.
You would know then - with your vast experience on Piston Twins....... :?
This is not a pissing contest ........ It is about an Private Pilot - stepping up from a Piston Single into a Beech 1900.
In my view - any CFI that signs him off should be prosecuted for criminal negligence......

He is talking about a cost of 65000 Rand for a Piston twin - with a 5000 Rand add on for a B1900 .........
How many hours can you buy for 70 K rand on a B 1900 ????
There is NO WAY he would be competent enough to fly that aircraft .......

Assuming he has done Variable Pitch and Retrac UC -
He would have no experience on Pressurisation / Fuel Management / Asymmetric flying / Altitude flying (how high can you get experience in on a Piston Single ??).....variable density and lift patterns at altitude ..... No experience on PT6 or Turbine in general .....
He would be used to plodding along at 145 Knots or so......... and then to a B1900 ????

Come on - get real - there is no way ........
He would become a statistic in no time..... or kill someone else .....

JK
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by AOYB » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:42 pm

And buying piston twin hours gets you...?

PIC on a piston twin or copilot on a multi engine turbine. Pretty sure the one is safer than the other. MHO
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by HJK 414 » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:57 pm

AOYB wrote:And buying piston twin hours gets you...?

PIC on a piston twin or copilot on a multi engine turbine. Pretty sure the one is safer than the other. MHO
In my view - you are dead wrong.
Flying a small Piston twin will give him experience ....
The fact that a B1900 is technically so advanced makes it tempting to just "jump in with minimal hours and go", but the lack of experience will kick in when something goes wrong. THAT is when the experience counts and flying the aircraft has to be second nature - without having to sort out all kinds of flying techniques - so to be free with troubleshooting issues..... Otherwise the aircraft will leave you behind - and kill you.... In your reasoning - he may as well step into a Airbus A320 ..... everything automated and autopilot on at 300 ft ....
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by Burner » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:29 pm

Snitch wrote:
Burner wrote:
There is no such thing as a P2 rating on a B1900. As it can be operated single crew, the CAA only issues P1 ratings on it.
Ok, ill take your word on it.
Was told by others they had P2 on B1900, though they work in the US. :?: :?:
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by Cornell Blok » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:05 pm

AOYB wrote:And buying piston twin hours gets you...?

PIC on a piston twin or copilot on a multi engine turbine. Pretty sure the one is safer than the other. MHO

Agree
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by Cornell Blok » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:06 pm

I found flying the King Air F90 easier than the Twin Comanche to fly 8-[
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by ANDY » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:31 pm

janklomp wrote:
AOYB wrote:And buying piston twin hours gets you...?

PIC on a piston twin or copilot on a multi engine turbine. Pretty sure the one is safer than the other. MHO
In my view - you are dead wrong.
Flying a small Piston twin will give him experience ....
The fact that a B1900 is technically so advanced makes it tempting to just "jump in with minimal hours and go", but the lack of experience will kick in when something goes wrong. THAT is when the experience counts and flying the aircraft has to be second nature - without having to sort out all kinds of flying techniques - so to be free with troubleshooting issues..... Otherwise the aircraft will leave you behind - and kill you.... In your reasoning - he may as well step into a Airbus A320 ..... everything automated and autopilot on at 300 ft ....
Janklomp, hundreds of pilots flying around Europe did just that, stepped straight into an Airbus with minimal multi engine flight time, some as little as 20 hours.
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by fly1981 » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:37 pm

janklomp wrote:
AOYB wrote:The 1900 is easier to fly than the piston twins. But what do I know, I only have 9.6 piston twin hours and 2400 b190 hours.
You would know then - with your vast experience on Piston Twins....... :?
This is not a pissing contest ........ It is about an Private Pilot - stepping up from a Piston Single into a Beech 1900.
In my view - any CFI that signs him off should be prosecuted for criminal negligence......

He is talking about a cost of 65000 Rand for a Piston twin - with a 5000 Rand add on for a B1900 .........
How many hours can you buy for 70 K rand on a B 1900 ????
There is NO WAY he would be competent enough to fly that aircraft .......

Assuming he has done Variable Pitch and Retrac UC -
He would have no experience on Pressurisation / Fuel Management / Asymmetric flying / Altitude flying (how high can you get experience in on a Piston Single ??).....variable density and lift patterns at altitude ..... No experience on PT6 or Turbine in general .....
He would be used to plodding along at 145 Knots or so......... and then to a B1900 ????

Come on - get real - there is no way ........
He would become a statistic in no time..... or kill someone else .....

JK
What a load of rubbish. I ha e flown with many very low time guys in a 1900. With the proper training they handle it perfectly fine. I would sooner put a low time comm pilot in the right seat of a 1900 than the left seat of a baron. The company I work for put 250 hr guys in 777/330/321's. They handle it just fine, with the correct training. Letting a low time guy loose on a piston twin in Johannesburg is negligent! I have flown many piston twins, as well Plenty of twin turbines, the 1900 is just fine for a guy with no twin experience, as he will operate out of the right seat, even if it is only for a couple of hundred hours.
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by HJK 414 » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:49 pm

fly1981 wrote: What a load of rubbish. I ha e flown with many very low time guys in a 1900. With the proper training they handle it perfectly fine. I would sooner put a low time comm pilot in the right seat of a 1900 than the left seat of a baron. The company I work for put 250 hr guys in 777/330/321's. They handle it just fine, with the correct training. Letting a low time guy loose on a piston twin in Johannesburg is negligent! I have flown many piston twins, as well Plenty of twin turbines, the 1900 is just fine for a guy with no twin experience, as he will operate out of the right seat, even if it is only for a couple of hundred hours.

:) We can agree on one thing for sure ..... Old school ...... and ...... new generation ....
.........You guys trust the "systems" and not the "flying skills"....... I was brought up in a time when you needed to demonstrate the ability to fly .....
A low time guy in a Baron (left seat) with someone next to him - indeed - has to learn to "fly"..... You even call it negligent, yet .....how does he learn to fly ???
Yet you will happily give him a license for A TURBINE TWIN ?? It looks like you do not take into account or realize the complexity of that aircraft with it's systems - and will place that in the hands of low time Piston single pilot ...... What happens if the PIC is incapacitated and you need that FO to get that aircraft under control....?

You can not put low time pilots in the "easiest" possible aircraft and then claim he will learn on the job ...... all he will do is become complacent - and forget that he can not FLY an aircraft ......After the Taipei crash (ATR) more than 70% of the Re-tested Pilots and FO's failed a simulator test with an emergency ..... and were sent for re-training !! ........Would that be the new norm ??

We will have to agree to disagree .......
I am at the end of my flying career - I flew around this globe twice in a Piston twin - and was always aware of the risks despite my "experience"....
but I think that this new style of doing things is going to bite back ........ Not saying you are wrong - I just do not agree with it .... :? :?

JK .... :wink:
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by Mauler » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:37 pm

I know which one I'd go for.
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by rare bird » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:48 pm

where would Concord have fitted in?
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by fly1981 » Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:46 am

janklomp wrote:
fly1981 wrote: What a load of rubbish. I ha e flown with many very low time guys in a 1900. With the proper training they handle it perfectly fine. I would sooner put a low time comm pilot in the right seat of a 1900 than the left seat of a baron. The company I work for put 250 hr guys in 777/330/321's. They handle it just fine, with the correct training. Letting a low time guy loose on a piston twin in Johannesburg is negligent! I have flown many piston twins, as well Plenty of twin turbines, the 1900 is just fine for a guy with no twin experience, as he will operate out of the right seat, even if it is only for a couple of hundred hours.

:) We can agree on one thing for sure ..... Old school ...... and ...... new generation ....
.........You guys trust the "systems" and not the "flying skills"....... I was brought up in a time when you needed to demonstrate the ability to fly .....
A low time guy in a Baron (left seat) with someone next to him - indeed - has to learn to "fly"..... You even call it negligent, yet .....how does he learn to fly ???
Yet you will happily give him a license for A TURBINE TWIN ?? It looks like you do not take into account or realize the complexity of that aircraft with it's systems - and will place that in the hands of low time Piston single pilot ...... What happens if the PIC is incapacitated and you need that FO to get that aircraft under control....?

You can not put low time pilots in the "easiest" possible aircraft and then claim he will learn on the job ...... all he will do is become complacent - and forget that he can not FLY an aircraft ......After the Taipei crash (ATR) more than 70% of the Re-tested Pilots and FO's failed a simulator test with an emergency ..... and were sent for re-training !! ........Would that be the new norm ??

We will have to agree to disagree .......
I am at the end of my flying career - I flew around this globe twice in a Piston twin - and was always aware of the risks despite my "experience"....
but I think that this new style of doing things is going to bite back ........ Not saying you are wrong - I just do not agree with it .... :? :?

JK .... :wink:
I think you missed my point. The likely hood of being "put in a baron with someone next to him" is remote, as a baron is only a 6 seater, that cannot actually carry 6 people performance wise on any medium distance charter. The 1900 is perfect, most do not have a/p's, and most contracts require the PIC to have a fairly large amount of comparative experience, considering the aircraft is certified single crew, it allows the guy in the right seat a bit of leeway, to learn From the person in the left seat, I maintain I would far rather put him in a 1900 than a baron, or similar...you mention the taipei crash. That crash happened for various reasons, one of the major reasons behind it was a poor safety culture, which was as a result of a defective training department, that is not the norm. That particular airline is well known for it, second hull lose in 2 years as a result of negligence. As I said before, with the CORRECT training, from a competent flight training organization, I DO NOT SEE THE PROBLEM. You are perfectly correct with regards to automation, unfortunately stick and rudder skills were overlooked during the past couple of years amongst the world wide airlines, emphasis was put of managing automation, that is changing as a result of a couple of recent accidents, 447 being the start of the revolution. You indicated in one of your previous posts that it is not possible to do an initial twin rating on the 1900, I am not to sure if this is the case or not, as I am no longer familiar with the SACAA regs. If it is the case, I think that it is absolutely ridiculous. Back to the original post, I would say your best bet is to speak to someone in the know. Simuflight used to have a Seneca simulator, if you are required to have a ME rating first, see if you can't work out a deal there, using the Seneca sim, and then Alfredo's very nice Seneca 111( if he still has it) should that option not work out, get hold of aptrac in PE. Years ago they installed a 1900 sim at their school in PE. Presumably to target airline cadets that required turbine ratings, to proceed with the cadet training. Whether or not they had to fly the piston twins first or not, I have no idea, but they will be able to advise you on the best way forward. Good luck...
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by wannabebushpilot » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:17 pm

Howzit everyone,

Just wanting to see what everyone thinks the best way for someone to get a B1900 onto their licence is, from having a Single Engine CPL IR and some single engine turbine time (over 1500 Hours)

I have to first do my multi engine rating on a piston and then head to simuflight to do the B1900 course?

Thanks for taking the time to read this and any suggestions will help a lot.
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by 738 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:35 pm

fly1981 wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:37 pm
janklomp wrote:
AOYB wrote:The 1900 is easier to fly than the piston twins. But what do I know, I only have 9.6 piston twin hours and 2400 b190 hours.
You would know then - with your vast experience on Piston Twins....... :?
This is not a pissing contest ........ It is about an Private Pilot - stepping up from a Piston Single into a Beech 1900.
In my view - any CFI that signs him off should be prosecuted for criminal negligence......

He is talking about a cost of 65000 Rand for a Piston twin - with a 5000 Rand add on for a B1900 .........
How many hours can you buy for 70 K rand on a B 1900 ????
There is NO WAY he would be competent enough to fly that aircraft .......

Assuming he has done Variable Pitch and Retrac UC -
He would have no experience on Pressurisation / Fuel Management / Asymmetric flying / Altitude flying (how high can you get experience in on a Piston Single ??).....variable density and lift patterns at altitude ..... No experience on PT6 or Turbine in general .....
He would be used to plodding along at 145 Knots or so......... and then to a B1900 ????

Come on - get real - there is no way ........
He would become a statistic in no time..... or kill someone else .....

JK
What a load of rubbish. I ha e flown with many very low time guys in a 1900. With the proper training they handle it perfectly fine. I would sooner put a low time comm pilot in the right seat of a 1900 than the left seat of a baron. The company I work for put 250 hr guys in 777/330/321's. They handle it just fine, with the correct training. Letting a low time guy loose on a piston twin in Johannesburg is negligent! I have flown many piston twins, as well Plenty of twin turbines, the 1900 is just fine for a guy with no twin experience, as he will operate out of the right seat, even if it is only for a couple of hundred hours.
Have any of these 250 hour guys that they put into 777/330/321’s being put to the test like The Ethiopian crew?
I doubt it.
They will handle it fine untill something out of the ordinary happens! Remember Captain Chesley Sullenberger?
Its been many years since i flew a 1900 but
A 1900D is a beast, if things go pear shape .....like no Feather etc, my view is that a 1900 rating should be completed in full motion simulator.
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Re: Beechcraft B1900 Rating direct from Single Engine piston

Unread post by Sea Rescue » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:57 pm

My Friend caruiters,
There you have been given SOUND advice from many posters, such as HJK-414, Happyskipper, Goffel and many more - all of whom I know and I honestly endorse what they are telling you. You can accept their advice or carry on and run the risk of becoming another statistic

In aviation there is NO SHORT-CUT, unless it is at your own expense Ie. Your own risk. One incident pointing at you, could prevent you from ever finding employment again - and you wonder why ??? Because at the outset your boots may have been much too large for your feet !!

No I am NOT being SNOTTY with you - I am trying to get you to see the light - but with the Sun shining in your eyes it is not so easy ??

Go and obtain your piston twin rating on a Baron - the Duchess was rightly mentioned by HJK, but they are few and far between these days.
A Baron will teach you well. It is very much like getting a Chopper rating on a piston engine one first and then upgrading to a Turbine as the understanding and appreciation of lack of power, will remain in your mind forever-after.

Look at it LONG TERM and forget the few Bucks you are trying to save now. You will simply end up being a far BETTER PILOT than any your peers who tried the "SHORT CUT".

Fly Safe.

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