Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom (10 July 2018)

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happyskipper
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by happyskipper » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:57 am

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Last edited by happyskipper on Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by apollo11 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:01 am

Bront wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:42 am
I would have whipped that thing around and pointed it at the closest runway. Once I was pointing at the runway I would have identified the burning engine and told the engineer to feather it, shut it down and activate the fire system. (I know it should have been the copilots job but he isn't rated and I've got an engineer sitting right there.) I would have got that plane back on the ground as fast as humanly possible. And I would have been watching that engine out my window like a hawk, in case I didn't think we could make the runway and then I would have stuck it anywhere I could.
I'm sure the crew wanted to get back onto the ground ASAP. That aircraft was unable to maintain straight and level let alone loading the wing attempting to maintain whilst in a turn turn back to the runway, attempting that would probably have entered risk into a stall spin scenario or impacted ground whilst descending.

It would be good to view the performance graphs on single engine operations but one also wonders if the no.2 engine was giving full power.

I agree with Jim under the circumstances they did what they could whilst in the air and it will be interesting to get the Captains report on the fire engine being handled the way it was.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by jimdavis » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:11 am

happyskipper wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:57 am
Bront - with respect, what skill do you possess over and above those of the average pilot that you "....would have whipped that thing around and pointed it at the closest runway"?

I am pretty sure that, had that option been open to them, that that is precisely what they would have done, too..
I am being snarky, on purpose, because noone seems to "get it" that these guys were competent pilots, in a very difficult situation, and did the best they could, under the circumstances. Flying a "wide circuit" was all that the aircraft was capable of, at that point in time - under different circumstances, they would have had it on the ground, in a flash, too.
We all know that adding bank subtracts lift, and a 15 degree angle of bank is probably all they were able to get, without descending into the higher ground on their revised flight path.
Personally, I would have considered landing straight ahead, after feathering and shutting down both both donkeys - but, I was not there, and don't know the reason why they elected to continue to keep the crate flying - and nobody else on this forum was either.
Sloppy Flipper I am with you 100%. When an aeroplane is battling to stay in the air, whipping her round is going to spin you in right there.

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by GavinT » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:51 am

These guys operated illegally, displayed zero airmanship and after several wrong desicions the plane could not fly anymore and flew itself to the crash site. It’s not an example of a great job. I think I’m with Bront on this one.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by cage » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:03 pm

We need to get over this "best they could" attitude.
It offers nothing to learning and when good intentions and "the best" comes up short of what was required then it has no relevance. Those injured or killed in accidents don't give a monkeys about that, they want to know what went wrong and how it can be prevented.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by HJK 414 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:41 pm

vildwillie wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:42 am
HJK 414 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:09 am
Oh dear ......... #-o
Perigrine - some are simply past "education".

JK
JK that is a little unfair? Everyone has an opinion and we should not discourage that, normally your comments are very neutral.


No - I do not think it is unfair.
If someone starts with statements like - whipping the aircraft around - after all that was posted and is now known - it says so much about the poster that I do not see the value in further debate - let alone trying to "correct" him / her or trying to "educate" him / her.
That person is then so far from understanding the basic principles that it is a lost case.

I accepted Perigrine's critique - as there are many opinions - and all as valid as the other - no problem with that - that was my bad
But when there are statements made such as Bront did - ("whipping it around") and not understanding the consequences of such - there is no value in continuing the debate.

Like Mark - I am out of here until new facts surface

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by jimdavis » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:07 pm

cage wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:03 pm
We need to get over this "best they could" attitude.
It offers nothing to learning and when good intentions and "the best" comes up short of what was required then it has no relevance. Those injured or killed in accidents don't give a monkeys about that, they want to know what went wrong and how it can be prevented.
When you say "we need to get over this... attitude". Are you telling us how we should think, or that our opinions have no value?

You might want to get over it yourself - that's just fine, but is it really your place to tell others what attitude to adopt and how to think?

I believe there is a lot to be learned even if doing their best was not enough. Probably the first thing we should learn is that it is very presumptuous to judge others without having all the facts.

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Deanw » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:16 pm

Enough already, play the ball and not the man. Please keep to topic.
How come every time my ship comes in I'm at the airport?

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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by liaan » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:31 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:07 pm
cage wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:03 pm
We need to get over this "best they could" attitude.
It offers nothing to learning and when good intentions and "the best" comes up short of what was required then it has no relevance. Those injured or killed in accidents don't give a monkeys about that, they want to know what went wrong and how it can be prevented.
When you say "we need to get over this... attitude". Are you telling us how we should think, or that our opinions have no value?

You might want to get over it yourself - that's just fine, but is it really your place to tell others what attitude to adopt and how to think?

I believe there is a lot to be learned even if doing their best was not enough. Probably the first thing we should learn is that it is very presumptuous to judge others without having all the facts.

jim
There is difference between praising/judging a person and saying they did something right or wrong. (one is emotional one is factual)

If your opinion is that they were idiots for even thinking of taking off, rather say, they should not have taken off as the control was stiff, or engine performance was down, and even include some facts maybe, engine should be 30psi, was 28. This won't offend anyone and everyone can learn or correct you if your logic might be wrong. This gives a person who have good knowledge a opportunity to either confirm it or correct it so everyone can learn.

as the old saying goes .. play the ball, not the man.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Sea Rescue » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:26 pm

Hi Guys,
Can anyone maybe give us an update on condition of the two surviving crewmembers ?

Thanking you in anticipation.

Alternatively does anyone have/know a contact person and number from whom we can find out the status quo ?

Fly Safe
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by danielmcgeer » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:43 pm

Some info on the ‘under qualified’ FO from the HARS website:

Doug has been a member of HARS since 1993. His aviation career started at Bankstown, learning to fly while still at High School. He joined the RAAF in 1976, flying BAC 1-11 VIP, Hercules C-130H, and instructed on CT-4A and HS 748 until 1984.

Joined Qantas in 1984, he is a currently a Check and Training Captain on the Airbus A380, and has flown and instructed on the B747 (Classic to 400) previously.

He has been involved in the Warbird movement for many years, and was part owner of a CAC Wirraway in the 1990s. He is now part owner of a CAC P-51D Mustang, based at Caboolture.

At HARS he has been the Project Manager for the Caribous since acquisition in 2011. Co-captained our Convair from South Africa to Albion Park in 2017. He flies the Caribou, Dakota, Convair 440, Constellation and Tiger Moth and whatever else he can get his hands on.

Captain Haywood is a Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society (FRAeS).
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Peregrine » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:33 pm

danielmcgeer wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:43 pm
Some info on the ‘under qualified’ FO from the HARS website:

Doug has been a member of HARS since 1993. His aviation career started at Bankstown, learning to fly while still at High School. He joined the RAAF in 1976, flying BAC 1-11 VIP, Hercules C-130H, and instructed on CT-4A and HS 748 until 1984.

Joined Qantas in 1984, he is a currently a Check and Training Captain on the Airbus A380, and has flown and instructed on the B747 (Classic to 400) previously.

He has been involved in the Warbird movement for many years, and was part owner of a CAC Wirraway in the 1990s. He is now part owner of a CAC P-51D Mustang, based at Caboolture.

At HARS he has been the Project Manager for the Caribous since acquisition in 2011. Co-captained our Convair from South Africa to Albion Park in 2017. He flies the Caribou, Dakota, Convair 440, Constellation and Tiger Moth and whatever else he can get his hands on.

Captain Haywood is a Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society (FRAeS).
That is without a doubt an impressive resumè Daniel. Regarding your “under qualified” nuance, unless I missed it, there has not been such a statement - the point is rather that the license does not seem to have been validated by the SACAA.

Be that as it may, what is clear as lessons learned from this accident is that no matter how well qualified and experienced one may be in aviation, human frailty in yielding to possible operational pressure, making inappropriate decisions, not preparing adequately for emergencies and so forth can and will lead to a disastrous outcome.

If the above can be taken aboard by young aviators, and taken aboard again as a wake-up call to the old-and-bolds, then something good will result from this tragedy.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by E816 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:51 pm

danielmcgeer wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:43 pm
Some info on the ‘under qualified’ FO from the HARS website:

Doug has been a member of HARS since 1993. His aviation career started at Bankstown, learning to fly while still at High School. He joined the RAAF in 1976, flying BAC 1-11 VIP, Hercules C-130H, and instructed on CT-4A and HS 748 until 1984.

Joined Qantas in 1984, he is a currently a Check and Training Captain on the Airbus A380, and has flown and instructed on the B747 (Classic to 400) previously.

He has been involved in the Warbird movement for many years, and was part owner of a CAC Wirraway in the 1990s. He is now part owner of a CAC P-51D Mustang, based at Caboolture.

At HARS he has been the Project Manager for the Caribous since acquisition in 2011. Co-captained our Convair from South Africa to Albion Park in 2017. He flies the Caribou, Dakota, Convair 440, Constellation and Tiger Moth and whatever else he can get his hands on.

Captain Haywood is a Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society (FRAeS).
Now I'm really speculating here, so please don't crucify me.
There is no doubt that the pilots were qualified to make this flight, paperwork aside. My question is, is it possible that their experience could've counted against them in this scenario? I'm sure the pilots hae seen it all and have nursed many a limping aircraft back to safety succesfully. Is it possible that they relied on that experience to do it again where perhaps a much less qualified pilot would've not known anything else and simply gone for the checklist and followed it to the point, perhaps resulting in a different outcome?
No nuance, no finger pointing, just an honest question.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Jolley Roger » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:52 pm

Sea Rescue wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:26 pm
Hi Guys,
Can anyone maybe give us an update on condition of the two surviving crewmembers ?
From the dried plum site:

8 Aug - They are coming back probably in the next ten days. I spoke to a pilot who saw them in hospital Doug is responding with hand squeezes Ross is still critical.
14 Aug - Doug arrived home yesterday on the 64. Congratulations to Qantas management for what they have done for him and will do for Ross.
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Re: Convair Radial Crash at Wonderboom - 10 July 2018

Unread post by Bront » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:27 pm

That plane was still flying very well up until it turned onto base leg. We know that because we saw it go sailing past the 172 or what ever it was. By whipping it around I mean getting it turned around as quickly as possible taking into account how well it was flying, how much power was coming from both engine, it's stall speed and anything else to make sure I completed the manoeuvre. I don't have any special skills as a pilot but I do know that I could get it turned around faster than a rate 1 turn, that's for sure and without stalling it. This I would have though was well within the capabilities of this crew. Even if you feel it was better to do a circuit I would still have done a much tighter one. They must have been in the air for the best part of 5 minutes.

An inflight fire is a very serious thing. To me it is the worst thing that can happen that's not instantly catastrophic. You really have to get the fire out immediately or you have to get back on the ground as soon as possible, even if that means destroying the aircraft but saving the passengers.

Anyone on here with half a brain knows that they shouldn't have even taken off. They shouldn't have had passengers either.

And if you want to play the man, by all means but if you find you can't educate me then it's probably because you don't know anything and not because I don't want to learn.

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