Stored airliners at JNB

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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by African Flyer » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:36 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:41 pm
evanb wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:54 pm

SXH is an A340-300, not a -600. It is the oldest A340 that arrived second-hand from Iberia. By comparison, it's 21 years old, whereas the youngest new build A340 is 13 years old.

The replacement was new A330-300s.

Hi Evanb

Interesting ......

One wonders whether the added lease cost for the 330's could have been avoided by using her for a few more years
The "extra" fuel probably costs less than the extra lease value.

21 years probably not mandatory retirement.
Fuel consumption ?
Route restrictions / Capacity ?
Maintenance reserve "eaten" up ?

Or is she waiting to go to another owner for the last 5 to 7 years of her life ?

JK
Hi JK,

What's the service or airframe life of an A340? 25 to 30 years?
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by trees » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:08 pm

FoxTROT wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:19 pm
trees wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:30 pm
ZS-SNA and SNB have been withdrawn. Delivered in 2002 they are getting old now and are early models which have heavier wings than the others. There was a rumour they were going to Global but I suspect its just that.
According to FR24, ZS-SNC doesn’t seem to have flown since mid November 2018 either
I don’t know the status of SNC but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s wfu. It also has the heavier wings.
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by evanb » Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:50 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:41 pm
One wonders whether the added lease cost for the 330's could have been avoided by using her for a few more years
The "extra" fuel probably costs less than the extra lease value.

21 years probably not mandatory retirement.
Fuel consumption ?
Route restrictions / Capacity ?
Maintenance reserve "eaten" up ?

Or is she waiting to go to another owner for the last 5 to 7 years of her life ?
Six of one, half a dozen oft he other. When fuel prices are low operating an owned and fully depreciated A340-300 may certainly be cheaper in terms of total cost (i.e. operating costs plus ownership costs) than leasing a new A330-300. However, as fuel prices rise then this equation starts to turn in favor of the more fuel efficient aircraft.

The challenge then comes when the A340-300 comes up for a D-check (note Airbus use a different schedule, but the D-check equivalent intervals are about every 5 years (for the C-4 check) or about every 10 years (for the C-8 check). So unless you're planning to run the aircraft until the next C-4 in about 5 years, then the major check invariably becomes the point of retirement. In the case of an owned aircraft one can also cannibalize it for parts reducing maintenance expenditures and cash flow needs on other aircraft (which is probably a significant cost saving for SAA given now many A330/A340s they have which can use these parts).

I suspect ZS-SXH was due a C-4 or even C-8 check, hence its retirement.
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by evanb » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:26 am

African Flyer wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:36 pm
What's the service or airframe life of an A340? 25 to 30 years?
Difficult to know.

The oldest A330s in scheduled service are with Cathay Dragon (B-HLK and B-HLJ) - about 26 years - however, most of that generation have been withdrawn.

There are some 27 year old A340s but they're not in scheduled service (charter or private or Iranian operators). The oldest in service for a schedule major operator is 24 year (TAP Air Portugal CS-TOA).
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by ERASER » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:19 am

I have seen ZS-SNA (A340-600) standing in SAAT today and is still operational. ZS-SNB (A340-600) was in for a service not to long ago however is currently standing next to hanger 8 without engines. I believe SAA is rotating aircraft thus some aircraft might be standing some time before taken up in the flight schedule again. ZS-SXH is being used as a source of spares and doubt it ever to fly again, think it will be scrapped in the future.
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:16 pm

evanb wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:50 pm

...........
The challenge then comes when the A340-300 comes up for a D-check (note Airbus use a different schedule, but the D-check equivalent intervals are about every 5 years (for the C-4 check) or about every 10 years (for the C-8 check). So unless you're planning to run the aircraft until the next C-4 in about 5 years, then the major check invariably becomes the point of retirement. In the case of an owned aircraft one can also cannibalize it for parts reducing maintenance expenditures and cash flow needs on other aircraft (which is probably a significant cost saving for SAA given now many A330/A340s they have which can use these parts).

I suspect ZS-SXH was due a C-4 or even C-8 check, hence its retirement.

Thx for the explanation.

I would have thought that it would have made more economic sense to sell her (perhaps conversion to freighter market) and use the proceeds to buy specific parts when required for remaining fleet ........

Now they have an aircraft they are cannibalizing - but many time-life items will run out of time - and yielding nothing.
We often found - especially with instrumentation that refurbishing / labor / parts - cost more than replacing with new in the end ....
Or are we looking at a cash strapped airline that is making difficult choices due to economic constraints ??


JK
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by evanb » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:55 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:16 pm
I would have thought that it would have made more economic sense to sell her (perhaps conversion to freighter market) and use the proceeds to buy specific parts when required for remaining fleet ........

Now they have an aircraft they are cannibalizing - but many time-life items will run out of time - and yielding nothing.
We often found - especially with instrumentation that refurbishing / labor / parts - cost more than replacing with new in the end ....
Or are we looking at a cash strapped airline that is making difficult choices due to economic constraints ??
It would take quite some time to sell. Nobody would purchase it for any useful price if there were a major check due unless they were purchasing to scrap it. Also, there is no freighter conversion market for the A340.

I'm not an expert in the scrapping/reconditioning of parts so don't know more about that.
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by African Flyer » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:54 pm

evanb wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:26 am
African Flyer wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:36 pm
What's the service or airframe life of an A340? 25 to 30 years?
Difficult to know.

The oldest A330s in scheduled service are with Cathay Dragon (B-HLK and B-HLJ) - about 26 years - however, most of that generation have been withdrawn.

There are some 27 year old A340s but they're not in scheduled service (charter or private or Iranian operators). The oldest in service for a schedule major operator is 24 year (TAP Air Portugal CS-TOA).
Thank you for the reply Evan. I would of expected both companies to retire them at around the 20 year mark. I'm sure both Dragon and TAP are waiting to have more A350 or A330 NEO before pulling the plug on these old airframes.
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by ArthurDent » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:21 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:16 pm
Or are we looking at a cash strapped airline that is making difficult choices due to economic constraints ??


JK
No, we’re probably just looking at a keyboard expert who likes second guessing everything done by South African SOE’s and authorities.
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by HJK 414 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:06 pm

ArthurDent wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:21 pm
HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:16 pm
Or are we looking at a cash strapped airline that is making difficult choices due to economic constraints ??


JK
No, we’re probably just looking at a keyboard expert who likes second guessing everything done by South African SOE’s and authorities.
I agree - there is always a Avcommer somewhere that feels he has to comment on affairs he does not understand / or fails to see the relevance of - and feels the need to make snide remarks.

To explain the "offending remark" - which was made in a discussion about the A340 - apparently being "cannibalized" to keep the other fleet flying ....

My line of thought was that SAA have a lot of assets under collateral / guarantee for the financing and loans on their balance sheet / and it is quite possible that they are not allowed to sell the assets (which would help raising cash for operational purposes) - and are hence making these "difficult choices" - as they are between a rock and a hard place ......

If you take the time to go back in the posts you will also notice that I questioned on the Maintenance reserve having been "eaten up"
The MR is a reserve of cash per hour flown - accounted for and parked to pay for upcoming maintenance bills - as is also the case with depreciation of assets / monthly or annual allocation of funds to replace the assets when appropriate.
I cases such as SAA - where Operational cash is non existent - it is often used to "pay for the daily bills".

Insolvent is the word - google it.
One could always ask when things are beyond your grasp ....... :idea:

JK
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:37 pm

ArthurDent wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:21 pm
HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:16 pm
Or are we looking at a cash strapped airline that is making difficult choices due to economic constraints ??


JK
No, we’re probably just looking at a keyboard expert who likes second guessing everything done by South African SOE’s and authorities.
Keep it civil [-X
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by cage » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:56 pm

HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:06 pm
I agree - there is always a Avcommer somewhere that feels he has to comment on affairs he does not understand / or fails to see the relevance of - and feels the need to make snide remarks.
No more so than those that feel the need to point out snide remarks and then resort to the same themselves when the discussion goes in the wrong direction.
Hypocrites and the inane are the order of the day.
Windbagsheer - when someone's opinion changes rapidly depending on the subject of conversation.
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Re: Stored airliners at JNB

Unread post by ArthurDent » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:29 am

Ugly Duckling wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:37 pm
ArthurDent wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:21 pm
HJK 414 wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:16 pm
Or are we looking at a cash strapped airline that is making difficult choices due to economic constraints ??


JK
No, we’re probably just looking at a keyboard expert who likes second guessing everything done by South African SOE’s and authorities.
Keep it civil [-X
Yeah, apologies Paul. I’m just so tired of this constant sniping from someone who is so obviously clueless about the workings of airlines, regulators and SA political imperatives. I’ll just stick him on my ignore list. Should remove the aggravation.

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