Avcom losing valuable contributors.

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jimdavis
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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:08 am

SlowApproach wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:50 am
My "real name" is Wooly Cockburn. (Now do you see why I don't want to use it here? :lol:)
WC - why not just use your initials? :lol:

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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by Whirly » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:14 am

jimdavis wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:06 am

Do I feel strongly about this? Yes - VERY.

jim
Me too Jim, I don't agree. :D

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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:23 am

Whirly wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:14 am
jimdavis wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:06 am

Do I feel strongly about this? Yes - VERY.

jim
Me too Jim, I don't agree. :D

Whirly.
You are being very naughty, Ja... oops... sorry, I mean Whirls. I am going to tell everyone who you are. So there... :D
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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by cage » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am

I don't understand the concept of an opinion isn't worth consideration unless you know who it is.
A post either has merit because of its content, or it doesn't.
It's a bit "boys clubby" if you only want to give time to what your mates say.
There have been many good posts over the years by people from all backgrounds, so saying you should ignore them unless you have their CV and/or they are known to you, flies in the face of the very concept of this forum which calls for all "enthusiasts" whomever they may be.
Hierarchy's work well in the airline and the military but really don't belong here.
Perhaps a solution is a sub-section where people of this view can go and ultimately all sit and agree with each other, that would make compelling reading - ok I am being a little sarky, but you get the point.

What is the value of everyone patting each other on the back, replete in the feelings of group validation.
Sounds about as exciting as joining the local caravan club. :wink:
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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by Roger » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:50 am

Reproducing a post we did in 2015 here as it is relevant:

AvCom – the past and the future.

Where to begin? Probably best place is most likely back to Fri Oct 17, 2003 at 3:05 pm, when the enter key was pressed and AvCom was born, well at least in the digital sense.
Our main objective was to build a community of like-minded aviation enthusiasts, where we could have a place to discuss topics that interested us, work through common obstacles and regulatory barriers, and improve on our safety culture.

For the first few years, we believe this objective was pretty much achieved.

If you ask my opinion as to whether we are still what was once a strong community, my answer has to be a categorical No! Our pages are littered with disrespectful remarks between fellow community members, threats of legal action between members and often a complete lack of tolerance if someone is perceived not to have a degree in the topic that they posted in, not to mention the constant dance that almost every accident discussion goes through.

The moderators group have over the last few years developed a comprehensive set of Terms and Conditions (T&Cs), which have guided as to how one should conduct oneself on the forum, but it is impossible to develop them to the point where they would be spelling out behaviors that should be instilled in each and every one of us by the time we reach adulthood. Behaviors such as respect for your fellow community member should not be required to be placed into our T&Cs – it is expected.

When I recently attended the AeCSA and CAA’s ‘Hello Winter’ presentation, one of the presenters suggested that we should look at one of the other SA based forums, as they were in his opinion, getting it right and keeping things positive. I did just this, and it is evident from my first visit there, that they are definitely in the same boat as us. See screenshot below discussing the recent police helicopter accident:

Image

It is not my intent to judge the other fora in SA, the main reason as to why I have referenced it is owing to the large number of our community members that often suggest that many of our problems may be from the fact that psuedonyms are used on AvCom. The forum mentioned above is a Facebook based forum where persons are posting under their real names, yet it has done very little in improving respect between the members.

The other item that it demonstrates is the other constant request where it has been suggested that only pilots or persons with sufficient aviation background are allowed onto our forum. The same platform mentioned above is a closed group forum and does have this as one of it’s requirements, but it too has fallen short of curbing the confrontations. We are now satisfied that someone has tried these suggestions and it has not worked, so we can now discount those suggestions and move on.

When we began AvCom, our intent was and still remains to be a place for all aviation enthusiasts. One of the main drivers behind this is that many a pilot began out as just that - an enthusiast.
Looking back to where our name came from – it was Aviation Community. Community is defined as a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists. So we should see ourselves as a distinctive group of aviation enthusiasts that should be working together – not against each other.

So how do we fix our community? To me the answer is really simple and can be summed up in a single word. Respect.

We are going to ask you to do a test each time you post over the next while, and that is to ask yourself before posting:
• Does this post add value?
• Is my post or response respectful?
If these two questions can be answered positively, there would be no need for any other T&Cs.

We are going to suggest to the mods that we enhance the current T&Cs for the next 90 days and any post that cannot pass the above test, is deleted.

It may sound like we want everyone singing Kumbaya together around the campfire. No, this is not the intent. Persons should feel free to put their point forward, but without the campfire jumping out and flaming the member. Simply put, the community as it stands now - cannot continue.

We will be honest, for those that find it difficult may find themselves in exile. It may sound drastic, but we need to do something differently to restore our once proud community. You are invited and it will be great if every single one of you can join us on this journey of respect.
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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by Falafel » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:52 am

cage wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am
I don't understand the concept of an opinion isn't worth consideration unless you know who it is.
A post either has merit because of its content, or it doesn't.
It's a bit "boys clubby" if you only want to give time to what your mates say.
There have been many good posts over the years by people from all backgrounds, so saying you should ignore them unless you have their CV and/or they are known to you, flies in the face of the very concept of this forum which calls for all "enthusiasts" whomever they may be.
Hierarchy's work well in the airline and the military but really don't belong here.
Perhaps a solution is a sub-section where people of this view can go and ultimately all sit and agree with each other, that would make compelling reading - ok I am being a little sarky, but you get the point.

What is the value of everyone patting each other on the back, replete in the feelings of group validation.
Sounds about as exciting as joining the local caravan club. :wink:
Well said Cage... there is a major problem in many countries where whistleblowers are alienated and marginalised and forcing full transparency in posting will simply put a damper on the free flow of information. There are always problem children but the good far outweighs the bad. Aviation is a very small industry, allowing people to talk freely can only be a good thing...
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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by cage » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:55 am

Thanks Roger. Sometimes there seems to be a bit of a "groundhog day" moment with similar discussion resurfacing. That post sums it up well.
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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:05 pm

Roger wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:50 am

So how do we fix our community? To me the answer is really simple and can be summed up in a single word. Respect.
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

At the risk of sounding like a brown noser I absolutely agree.

And it doesn't work to say "with respect, you are an idiot". This is a tactic used by some the last time this happened.

And Roger, the last time this happened the mods did not follow through and suspend the offenders. The rules were not properly policed so the offenders continued to offend. That's why it has all happened again.

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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by Fransw » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:06 pm

Boohoo! Cry me a river! :?
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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by Roger » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:19 pm

Need to add that as of in the last quarter of 2018, when registering on AvCom, you are now required to add your real name and cell number to your profile. These fields can only be seen by the moderators and we actively delete any profiles where we can easily see they are bogus.

As far as existing user accounts, bit trickier and we have not forced members to update, but we may consider it at some point, hopefully with using a carrot to members (as opposed to a big stick) :D If you would like to volunteer to do it now, click here and go to the last 3 fields on the screen: https://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/ucp.php?i=164
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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:19 pm

cage wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am
I don't understand the concept of an opinion isn't worth consideration unless you know who it is.

Hierarchy's work well in the airline and the military but really don't belong here.

Perhaps a solution is a sub-section where people of this view can go and ultimately all sit and agree with each other, that would make compelling reading - ok I am being a little sarky, but you get the point.

What is the value of everyone patting each other on the back, replete in the feelings of group validation.
Sounds about as exciting as joining the local caravan club. :wink:
Cage, regarding your first comment above, if a three year old tells you that the best car is a VW - are you going to take her seriously?

I believe your second comment about Hierarchy is not accurate. It works in almost every instance where people gather. It works in the home, it works in a mountaineering club, it works in business, in the office, the movie industry and sports. In fact I am hard pushed to find a place where it doesn't work. Those who don't recognise it in the disciplined environment of aviation are likely to come short.

The last two paragraphs are perhaps examples covert disrespect hiding behind sarcasm and a wink.

I am being blunt because this is a time for honesty. I trust my remarks show no disrespect, they are not intended that way.

jim
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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by Wonko the Sane » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:27 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:05 pm
Roger wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:50 am

So how do we fix our community? To me the answer is really simple and can be summed up in a single word. Respect.
....

And it doesn't work to say "with respect, you are an idiot". This is a tactic used by some the last time this happened.

....

jim
Uncle Jim (the respect part)... I find that the verbal use of "in my opinion..." does away with the need for feigned respect... Thus "in my opinion, you (the addressed recipient) are an idiot..." :P :P

But yes, I am NOT an aviation expert and have never forced my believes on others but I have, quite recently and on many other occasions taken on posters that feel that respect and common decency are beneath them...

Good on the mods for cleaning up a bit... Thanks

Just my 2c...


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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by cage » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:28 pm

For me, when anyone takes the time to write a balanced and thought out post it is worth consideration.
When posters views change depending on how it affects them then that ruins credibility.

A couple of years back a member assumed a pseudonym and trolled me. Being the nice oke I am, I was happy that the powers that be sort it out behind the scenes.
Obviously the oke felt like saying what he did couldn't be done under his name, so it shows that the best of us will behave badly anonymously.
I didn't even get an apology, so when you see commentary about manners and and aliases, it would seem that Standards are something that only other people have to meet.
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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by RGB » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:46 pm

Hi All

I have to be honest I have been following Avcom for many years and got a lot of valuable information and help from people who genuinely have the same passions and interests as me. It has helped with many aspects of my career and was always a place I could go for advise and candour. The fact is there will always be "clowns" in every industry or form of social media why pay them any notice , if an idiotic comment is made by someone it reflects on them not on you, and trust me anyone worth their salt will notice who made the comment.

The whole PC culture of late has forced people to get "brave" behind a keyboard and alias, these people in reality are not worth the time and effort just because it is senseless and disrespectful and ends up being a personal attack rather that a Aviation Community so just ignore the stupidity and eventually it will go away.

regarding the original post suggesting it is the youngsters (not sure where I sit on this at 33) but I agree the younger generation try so hard to prove how right they are with witty comments and attacks that they forget to address or keep on topic (they listen to ANSWER not to learn).

I think it is simple don't be a douche , add value to a topic ,question if you don't understand and listen to learn not to answer and slowly you will shift from being an irritating know it all to someone who people actually come to for advise .......till then just ignore the idiots and enjoy what Avcom has to offer.

RGB
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Re: Avcom losing valuable contributors.

Unread post by Jack Welles » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:12 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:19 pm
I believe your second comment about Hierarchy is not accurate. It works in almost every instance where people gather. It works in the home, it works in a mountaineering club, it works in business, in the office, the movie industry and sports. In fact I am hard pushed to find a place where it doesn't work. Those who don't recognise it in the disciplined environment of aviation are likely to come short. jim
Jim, with the greatest respect ( :lol: ), I, too, have at times a problem with a strict application of hierarchy, mainly because it serves to overshadow "merit". I absolutely agree that in certain environments it's appropriate but by no means all.

My other problem with hierarchy is that it can become a more acceptable synonym for "time-serving". As a laaitie I always wanted folk to substantiate with logical arguments what they said and refused to accept stuff just because the people were older or more experienced. It led to many conflicts in environments such as school etc :cry:

As an aside, it doesn't seem to work in many sports. Example 1: that's why a green Bob Skinstad was made a Springbok Captain over many another much more "experienced" player. Example 2: the fastest runner wins the race, even if it's his or her first time on the track. It seems to me that generally sport is dictated to by "merit" not hierarchy.
Last edited by Jack Welles on Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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