Understanding ROC

Unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), commonly known as a drone and also referred to as an unpiloted aerial vehicle and a remotely piloted aircraft (RPA) by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), is an aircraft without a human pilot aboard.

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Understanding ROC

Unread post by Alien.swd » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:10 pm

Good day.

I am trying to understand the ROC requirements differences between getting at ROC that allows commercial operations and an ROC that only allows corporate operations.

I know both takes time, lots of time. What is the benefits of trying to get a Corporate license compared to Commercial License if the type of flying will only be to ensure Public Safety, Land surveying for own internal mapping, Fire Assesment, Informal settelment assesment and maybe later housing development assesment.

I have to make a few recommendations for future endevours and what to start getting our ducks in a row, as well as start looking at getting the funding and even required personel on payroll.

Thank you
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Re: Understanding ROC

Unread post by Multirotordronepilot » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:48 pm

Alien.swd wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:10 pm
Good day.

I am trying to understand the ROC requirements differences between getting at ROC that allows commercial operations and an ROC that only allows corporate operations.

I know both takes time, lots of time. What is the benefits of trying to get a Corporate license compared to Commercial License if the type of flying will only be to ensure Public Safety, Land surveying for own internal mapping, Fire Assesment, Informal settelment assesment and maybe later housing development assesment.

I have to make a few recommendations for future endevours and what to start getting our ducks in a row, as well as start looking at getting the funding and even required personel on payroll.

Thank you
My best advice is to please contact the SACAA Cape Town office on 021-9344212 and speak to Peter, Rudolph or Kusini .
I could also give you my opinion or advice which will only fuel the negative drivel which will surely erupt shortly and which you should pay no attention to.

The people at the office for which I have given you the number are some of the most helpful I have ever come across and I'm sure you will feel the same after chatting to them.

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Re: Understanding ROC

Unread post by edwoodza » Tue May 21, 2019 2:43 pm

both are painful, and given current backlog and speed CAA is working i would put the timeline now at over 5 years (1 roc done in last 6 months)
corp is limiting
commercial is the same work so may as well just do that.
only 1 corp ROC off the top of my head (anglo)

my 5c and you get change
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Re: Understanding ROC

Unread post by Triaan » Wed May 22, 2019 8:37 am

You should Most Definitely pay attention to the negative aspect,don't fool yourself for 1 second. Because it Will directly impact your business and your own health in the long run, many out there will promise you LaLa land everyday because they are part of the few on the pet list.

I have seen with my own eyes companies go down because of time and money wasted into this pitfall.

Rather start a business abroad, you will be amazed at how much they Value Welcome and Empower You as a Provider of this service rather than work Against you to for fill backwards thinking and selfish ideologies.

The world abroad takes this revolution with open hands and makes it grow.

Google just got the go ahead for a delivery service, something that is too much for our backwards thinking legislation to even try and make sense of ! Beyond pathetic !
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Re: Understanding ROC

Unread post by edwoodza » Wed May 22, 2019 9:07 am

@trian i do agree. i get shot down for it, labeled negative but its reality.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, chances are ITS A DUCK. NOT a goose, or a swan ITS A DUCK.

Our ROC took 3 years to get. We were number 24 in the pile when our OM hit the desk (where it will get lost 2x i assure you)
So that at that time was 8 ROC a year (4 in 6 months) CAA processed.

Currently since December CAA has done 1 ROC, so now its down to 1 ROC in 6 months which shows a reduction is speed by 4x)
hence if it took 3 years for us, how long will it take now at the current pace since its now 4x slower? (12 years says the stats and thats assuming you are 24 in the pile which is also likely not the case)

BUT now also lets not forget there are 38 ROC's currently.
EACH CAA have to audit as CAA ONLY issues ROC's for 12 months (while AOC is 2-3 years) SO this means 38 onsite audits are required to re-issue the current ROC certificates.

My forecast for this year you will see several ROC's not renew their ROC's and stop operating.

As much as i want to be positive about the local industry the reality is the reality and CAA is CAA and CAA never changes, never has, never will, the only changes sadly are never for the good.

With the current CAA backlog for ROC. RLA as well as real aircraft ops we will see CAA fall over this year and grind to a stand still sadly due to power fights, over control and OverBeurocritisation.

My advise to those wanting to start. Don't waste your money. take your money go on a nice holiday, you will be more relaxed, health will be better and you will have great memories vs the alternative
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Re: Understanding ROC

Unread post by fourwings » Fri May 31, 2019 9:11 am

Good Grief! 1x ROC every 6months! HOW THE HELL is this country meant to grow with backward thinking like that! Good God!
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Re: Understanding ROC

Unread post by Talking_Radio » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:43 am

There are pros and cons of being in possession of a Part 101 RPAS Operator license (ROC) — besides the obvious one, which is compensation of course.

For the unversed, the Civil Aviation Authority Part 101 Operator license is like having a driver’s license for commercial drone pilots. For those who are already in possession of this sought-after license, the freedom to fly your remotely piloted aircraft is literally at your fingertips. However, it is important to always remember the rules that go along with it. This includes flying both socially as well as for commercial gain.

Here are some pros and cons that are worth considering regarding the Drone/RPAS Market, and having your own SACAA approved ROC:

PROS

1. You can operate as an independent Commercial Drone business entity.
2. You will have full access to the Drone Market which includes Tender opportunities that allow your company to compete on a level reserved for those who have endured the ROC 5-Phase application process and successfully achieved approval to operate legally.
3. Your ROC gives your business credibility and you can legally advertise your Commercial drone services on all social media channels/platforms.

Remember that ultimately the knowledge you have acquired while following the ROC 5-Phase application process will be considered as Applied Power going forward.

CONS

1. Even if you have an approved ROC you will initially be allowed to fly your RPAS during the hours of daytime only, which is classified as fifteen minutes before sunrise to fifteen minutes after sunset.
2. Although you can legally operate under what is called an `umbrella’ ROC you will have to sign an agreement with the owner of that approved ROC before they allow you to operate commercially under their ROC organisation. Your RPAS would also have to be registered under their ROC in order to operate legally. So you will then be able to fly your drone for reward however the profits will be shared on a percentage basis dependent on what you have signed in the respective agreement.
3. You may lose business to rogue drone operators who are not ROC legal and instead are flying under the radar to avoid having to follow this application process.

Remember that owning your own ROC means you will also be in the position of offer those interested parties an ‘umbrella’ ROC – the power will be in your hands!

There is however plenty of paperwork and extra certification involved in the ROC application process and you will have to exercise patience when making your formal ROC application.

TIPS

Here are some useful tips to consider if you are thinking about starting your own ROC and becoming a Dronepreneur:

Familiarize yourself with the CAA’s requirements/regulations for commercial drone pilots. All work that involves flying a drone in South Africa for any kind of compensation, including “in kind compensation” (i.e., work for trade), is considered as being commercial operations by the SACAA.
Learn about the different makes of drones out there, from cheap starter drones, to camera drones, to high end professional drones.
Do some initial business planning, including drawing up an initial budget, identifying the niche you might want to work in, and thinking through what marketing and sales might look like for your drone business.
Consider working toward becoming a skilled Drone pilot.
Look into getting drone insurance (including 3rd Party Liability Insurance) which will not only give you peace of mind, but also help professionalize your operation.
There are 6 posts that need to be filled in the company, i.e.:
Accountable Manager/CEO
Quality Manager
Safety Officer/Manager
Security Manager
Responsible Person: Aircraft
Responsible Person: Operation.
You will need at least 2 persons in your Company, of which one would need to have Safety and Quality Management Certification (the person allocated to Safety and Quality Management cannot be the Accountable Manager/CEO).
Should you wish to obtain further related information, please pm me.
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Re: Understanding ROC

Unread post by edwoodza » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:34 am

This is how i explain the ROC to people:
"Candy Coated Vomit" looks great on the outside, the potential the opportunities, the pro career, being legal when others are not, the dream of your own pro drone company.
But crack the shiny outer shell that draws you in with its pretty looks and selling a dream and you uncover a world very different to what the outside shell has been selling. (this may sound negative, maybe it is. BUT I have been through this process. and other ROC's will backup a lot of this. well those at least who are not selling their ROC with umbrella ROC's and those who are selling training. ie the independents like your are wanting to be)

Just because you are a legal ROC does not mean people will use you.
South African culture is not to follow laws you do not like and part 101 is one of these.
The Legal ROC industry is still born until illegal operations are stamped out.
and to date CAA has done and is doing nothing about this.

If you looking to do a ROC, ask yourself if you invested that money somewhere else what could it do for you. because the ROC process now will take well over 6+ years at CAA current speed and backlog.
Others will tell you otherwise, but ask why they saying this and how they are backing up their statements to see motive.

The biggest money to be made on large scale generally now is TRAINING, CONSULTING (to setup roc's) and UMBRELLA ROC's unless you a BIG company with VC or big contracts behind you.

Again it may sound negative, but i would rather share a reality with those looking to do a ROC than see more people loose money, hope and more going into something without the full truth.
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Re: Understanding ROC

Unread post by Multirotordronepilot » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:58 am

edwoodza wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:34 am
(this may sound negative, maybe it is. ) Oh boy ..........

South African culture is not to follow laws you do not like and part 101 is one of these. What are the thoughts then on market pricing collusion ? Suppose its on a similar level to 101 ?
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Re: Understanding ROC

Unread post by edwoodza » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:02 am

?
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Re: Understanding ROC

Unread post by Triaan » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:46 am

Talking_Radio wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:43 am
Operator license is like having a driver’s license for commercial drone pilots. For those who are already in possession of this sought-after license, the freedom to fly your remotely piloted aircraft is literally at your fingertips.
Good one :lol: =D>

The only thing your fingertips will experience once going through the pocket emptying, gruelling process being a freshy out of "ROC" school is burnt fingertips and being swindled, and the constraints making you realize you have just been duped into throwing away your life savings into a Pink Elephant full of empty promises #-o
Talking_Radio wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:43 am

The Legal ROC industry is still born until illegal operations are stamped out.
and to date CAA has done and is doing nothing about this.
And you actually still get people wondering WHY they have not been stamped out... ??
My Golly.... perhaps it's because they KNOW their policies are beyond ridiculous #-o
Illegal operation will never seize until policies are made for sane and ordinary business people (that i can't see happening however, so it will Never be stamped out) #-o
Talking_Radio wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:43 am

Remember that ultimately the knowledge you have acquired while following the ROC 5-Phase application process will be considered as Applied Power going forward.
:lol: =D> #-o
The knowledge you have gained, will leave you constraint and constricted, wondering how and why the hell you ever let yourself get duped into pursuing this Lunacy !

As for the rest of your post.The processes and costs involved is absolutely ridiculous, after all that and after 6 years you WILL be left HIGH and DRY.

Rather get certified in a country that will SUPPORT you without ridiculous constraints and needless mountains of paperwork. The world is moving forward in this field while we are moving backwards !

Rather Invest in something that will actually improve your life ! !

Amazon received the Go ahead for delivery operations, Volocopter received the go ahead to operate commercially by the end of next year ! ! They are lightning years ahead of us ! ! WE still cannot take off our little toy drones without threatening legal consequences, costs, cliche's, and paperwork, a select few that rules the industry with an iron fist, monopolizing it all for their own gain, withholding advancement and growth of the industry ! !
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Re: Understanding ROC

Unread post by _juju_ » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:51 pm

I would like to know exactly why South Africa needs to have this ROC requirement in place? I respect the fact that every country can (and do) have their own views and laws, that still doesn't explain the necessity though.

From what I can tell the following countries (and I have not done exhaustive investigations or the like) do not have this extra (and rather hefty) requirement in place:
- USA: take your pick of two types of licences, testing of one (commercial) is somewhat more involved than the other but no more so than our local RPL
- UK: licencing similar to our RPL, and a 16.50 (pound sterling) annual fee
- Canada: admittedly somewhat more restrictive as of late, but licencing similar to our RPL
- Australia: from what I could tell licencing similar to our RPL

So, the question is this. Are their drone operators / pilots more capable than local ones? Or are their manned aircraft pilots more capable than our local ones? I don't think the answer to either of those questions would be yes. So what gives?

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