Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

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Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:53 pm

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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:21 pm

Airwayfreak wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:53 pm
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/v ... ction=view

Absolutely horrible
oooh

that web page link, is also very slow
I see it is a youtbe based video

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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:25 pm

Thanks ET. Tried my best to get a better link. Bit of a technophobe.
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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by Burner » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:37 pm

VMC issue? I have read that the Duke is a handful close to VMC. Apparently you need 150 lbs of rudder force approaching it, which is supposedly the maximum amount that the FAA allows for certification, and apparently also the most amount of force required in any piston twin.

It seems to happen horrifically quickly.
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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by Jean Crous » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:01 pm

Six seconds from rotate to dead....horrific :shock: . Would that be because of asemetric thrust , or did they rotate too soon ?
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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by Ray W » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:45 pm

Wow thats horrible
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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by CarlGrobler58 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:51 pm

I believe they lost an engine. I'm Duke rated and I'll NEVER push a single engine takeoff. I think it's simply not possible when in takeoff configuration. In fact, on a single engine approach a go around once below 400' has a very good chance of ending in tragedy.
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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:16 pm

CarlGrobler58 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:51 pm
I believe they lost an engine.
My thought as well
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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by jimdavis » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:53 pm

Jean Crous wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:01 pm
Six seconds from rotate to dead....horrific :shock: . Would that be because of asemetric thrust , or did they rotate too soon ?
Jean
That looks very odd. If he was asymmetric why would he be climbing so steeply? It doesn't make sense.

There was a Dak that did that at Wonderboom - full aft trim, after the engineers had it there for a ground run - if I remember correctly.

And there was a twin in Oz (can't remember the type) that did much the same because of full rudder trim in one direction. I think the crew misread it as an engine failure. This can be caused by the previous flight simulating an engine failure. The trim on twins can be pretty powerful.

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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by Jean Crous » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:00 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:53 pm
Jean Crous wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:01 pm
Six seconds from rotate to dead....horrific :shock: . Would that be because of asemetric thrust , or did they rotate too soon ?
Jean
That looks very odd. If he was asymmetric why would he be climbing so steeply? It doesn't make sense.

There was a Dak that did that at Wonderboom - full aft trim, after the engineers had it there for a ground run - if I remember correctly.

And there was a twin in Oz (can't remember the type) that did much the same because of full rudder trim in one direction. I think the crew misread it as an engine failure. This can be caused by the previous flight simulating an engine failure. The trim on twins can be pretty powerful.

jim
Uncle Jim me not being twin rated, my thoughts were ,: if the left engine failed would it not roll to the left because of asymmetric thrust and gyroscopic precession of the prop turning at full tilt ? Please explain to a single engine pilot :)
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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by Walter105 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:44 pm

That was horrible. But why did it pitch up so steeply before rolling over and crashing? That was odd.
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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by V5 - LEO » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:23 pm

....what about a run away pilot seat together with the engine malfunction??
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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by jimdavis » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:21 pm

Jean Crous wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:00 pm

Uncle Jim me not being twin rated, my thoughts were ,: if the left engine failed would it not roll to the left because of asymmetric thrust and gyroscopic precession of the prop turning at full tilt ? Please explain to a single engine pilot :)
Jean
Jean - I am not sure which way the props turn on that aircraft, but precession is not the main force to contend after an engine failure on a twin.

The problem is about keeping straight. Obviously you would use right rudder, if the left engine failed. This is fine - but the rudder's effectiveness is a function of airspeed. So if you let the airspeed decrease to a point where full rudder won't do the job (Vmc) then she starts turning left. And as soon as she turns then you get more lift on the outside wing - the right one in this case - so she rolls left and that's it - game over.

It happens unbelievably quickly. The only thing you can do about it, if you realise you are running out of airspeed and rudder authority is to reduce power on the good engine - but no one wants to do that when you are battling to remain airborne. It is actually the best option, because at least you hit the ground right side - instead of going in inverted, like this poor guy.

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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by Walter105 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:37 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:21 pm
Jean Crous wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:00 pm

Uncle Jim me not being twin rated, my thoughts were ,: if the left engine failed would it not roll to the left because of asymmetric thrust and gyroscopic precession of the prop turning at full tilt ? Please explain to a single engine pilot :)
Jean
Jean - I am not sure which way the props turn on that aircraft, but precession is not the main force to contend after an engine failure on a twin.

The problem is about keeping straight. Obviously you would use right rudder, if the left engine failed. This is fine - but the rudder's effectiveness is a function of airspeed. So if you let the airspeed decrease to a point where full rudder won't do the job (Vmc) then she starts turning left. And as soon as she turns then you get more lift on the outside wing - the right one in this case - so she rolls left and that's it - game over.

It happens unbelievably quickly. The only thing you can do about it, if you realise you are running out of airspeed and rudder authority is to reduce power on the good engine - but no one wants to do that when you are battling to remain airborne. It is actually the best option, because at least you hit the ground right side - instead of going in inverted, like this poor guy.

jim

Jim, I've always wondered about VMC issues in a twin. If FAA certifications are done so that the average pilot should be able to maintain control of the aircraft, why do so many piston twins end up spinning in and killing their crews? Should the single engine asymetric handling characteristics not be more docile?

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Re: Beech Duke crash - Fullerton

Unread post by ddevos » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:50 pm

jimdavis wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:21 pm
Jean - I am not sure which way the props turn on that aircraft, but precession is not the main force to contend after an engine failure on a twin.
Standard clockwise rotation (viewed from the cockpit) for both engines.
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