A340 (ORT)

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ERASER
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A340 (ORT)

Unread post by ERASER » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:24 pm

I noticed that there are 3 x A340-300's standing at Denel, are they also for Global?
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by trees » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:55 pm

I think they are ex Turkish. According to planespotters they are for Africa Charter Airline.
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by evanb » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:31 pm

These old A340s are intriguing ...

Global took 3x ex EK A340-500s. They've been standing at JNB for over a year. Have not flown yet.

Africa Charter Airline have 4x ex TK A340-300s.

Any idea what their intensions are?
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by gregdeklerk » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:41 pm

evanb wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:31 pm
These old A340s are intriguing ...

Global took 3x ex EK A340-500s. They've been standing at JNB for over a year. Have not flown yet.

Africa Charter Airline have 4x ex TK A340-300s.

Any idea what their intensions are?
You are normally the best source of info here. If you don't know, not many will.
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by Burner » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:47 pm

I had heard rumours from colleagues who know guys at Global, about talks launching Cape Town to Miami. Not sure how true it is. It is pretty interesting that apart from Aeronexus with their VIP 767, South Africa hasn't got any wide body ACMI operators.
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by evanb » Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:00 pm

gregdeklerk wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:41 pm
You are normally the best source of info here. If you don't know, not many will.
Unfortunately, I know nothing about these operators.
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by Mark Lawrence » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:37 pm

Burner wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:47 pm
I had heard rumours from colleagues who know guys at Global, about talks launching Cape Town to Miami. Not sure how true it is.
This would be a very interesting option especially for all us ex-pats in the SE USA. The announcement by United of the EWR-CPT flight while a nice direct option especially on a Dreamliner, enforces us to go through that den of evil otherwise known as Newark and flying for example from SE Florida for almost 3 hours to hop on the CPT flight isn't exactly appealing. Ex-pats in this part of the world have been sending letters to American for ages now since they got their Dreamliners to open MIA-JNB or MIA-CPT direct. I think also that with the huge cruise liner territory here from MIA and FLL and further up the coast at Cape Canaveral to the Caribbean, Mexico, etc. could also boost numbers coming from SA to here and then of course Orlando and all that is Disney and Universal is only 3 1/2 hours drive from MIA so that might help this area some too. I'd welcome with open arms and direct South Florida to SA ventures!!
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by evanb » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:09 pm

Burner wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:47 pm
I had heard rumours from colleagues who know guys at Global, about talks launching Cape Town to Miami. Not sure how true it is. It is pretty interesting that apart from Aeronexus with their VIP 767, South Africa hasn't got any wide body ACMI operators.
The complexity of long haul scheduled operations as well as the high operating cost base it improbably that a start-up schedule operator could just start an ultra long haul route.

The regulatory barriers are high, the sales and distribution challenges are massive and the business risks are large. I'm not saying it can't be done but there is a reason why you don't see a lot of successful ultra long haul (or even just long haul) start-ups.
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by evanb » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:21 pm

Mark Lawrence wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:37 pm
This would be a very interesting option especially for all us ex-pats in the SE USA. The announcement by United of the EWR-CPT flight while a nice direct option especially on a Dreamliner, enforces us to go through that den of evil otherwise known as Newark and flying for example from SE Florida for almost 3 hours to hop on the CPT flight isn't exactly appealing. Ex-pats in this part of the world have been sending letters to American for ages now since they got their Dreamliners to open MIA-JNB or MIA-CPT direct. I think also that with the huge cruise liner territory here from MIA and FLL and further up the coast at Cape Canaveral to the Caribbean, Mexico, etc. could also boost numbers coming from SA to here and then of course Orlando and all that is Disney and Universal is only 3 1/2 hours drive from MIA so that might help this area some too. I'd welcome with open arms and direct South Florida to SA ventures!!
If the sales market is primarily South African originating and South African expat VFR traffic the route has no hope of being financially successful. The primary reason for this is the revenue premium from US based sales. For example, SAA currently charge a 30% premium for D-class (discounted business class) and 46% premium for J-class (flexible business class) tickets sold with from a US point of origin compared to an SA point of origin. For every 10 business class seats sold in the US versus SA this will amount to a revenue difference of about R400,000 each way. Given the high cost of operating ultra long haul flights this revenue premium is absolutely essential.
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by Mark Lawrence » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:37 pm

evanb wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:21 pm
If the sales market is primarily South African originating and South African expat VFR traffic the route has no hope of being financially successful. The primary reason for this is the revenue premium from US based sales. For example, SAA currently charge a 30% premium for D-class (discounted business class) and 46% premium for J-class (flexible business class) tickets sold with from a US point of origin compared to an SA point of origin. For every 10 business class seats sold in the US versus SA this will amount to a revenue difference of about R400,000 each way. Given the high cost of operating ultra long haul flights this revenue premium is absolutely essential.
Well darn, put it that way, then it's either going to be the cheaper fares going via Dubai, Doha, etc. (which actually are good fares and good flights) and lots and lots of hours as opposed to going to ATL, IAD or JFK and paying the premium for wanting a direct flight.
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by Diesel-3 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:21 pm

This would be a very interesting option especially for all us ex-pats in the SE USA. The announcement by United of the EWR-CPT flight while a nice direct option especially on a Dreamliner, enforces us to go through that den of evil otherwise known as Newark and flying for example from SE Florida for almost 3 hours to hop on the CPT flight isn't exactly appealing. Ex-pats in this part of the world have been sending letters to American for ages now since they got their Dreamliners to open MIA-JNB or MIA-CPT direct. I think also that with the huge cruise liner territory here from MIA and FLL and further up the coast at Cape Canaveral to the Caribbean, Mexico, etc. could also boost numbers coming from SA to here and then of course Orlando and all that is Disney and Universal is only 3 1/2 hours drive from MIA so that might help this area some too. I'd welcome with open arms and direct South Florida to SA ventures

The average South African is living paycheck to paycheck.. they not going to feed this market. The Randela / Trump exchange rate would make this prohibitive. Cannot see it working
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by evanb » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:25 pm

Mark Lawrence wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:37 pm
Well darn, put it that way, then it's either going to be the cheaper fares going via Dubai, Doha, etc. (which actually are good fares and good flights) and lots and lots of hours as opposed to going to ATL, IAD or JFK and paying the premium for wanting a direct flight.
There is no premium, surprisingly, when buying economy tickets on the direct flights. The premium is really in the business class tickets. So for ordinary folk the direct flights make a really good value option. The challenge is that the airlines can't make the economics of ULH flying work without selling some very expensive business class seats!
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by Burner » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:59 pm

evanb wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:09 pm
Burner wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:47 pm
I had heard rumours from colleagues who know guys at Global, about talks launching Cape Town to Miami. Not sure how true it is. It is pretty interesting that apart from Aeronexus with their VIP 767, South Africa hasn't got any wide body ACMI operators.
The complexity of long haul scheduled operations as well as the high operating cost base it improbably that a start-up schedule operator could just start an ultra long haul route.

The regulatory barriers are high, the sales and distribution challenges are massive and the business risks are large. I'm not saying it can't be done but there is a reason why you don't see a lot of successful ultra long haul (or even just long haul) start-ups.

Agreed 100 percent Evan. Its pretty much exactly what I thought when I heard it. You can't just stick a wide body on a route, as a new airline... and then expect to fill it. Just saying what I heard from (whom I deem credible sources)... let's see. Strange that 6 A340s are now rusting (or whatever plastic does in the sun) at ORT.
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by ERASER » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:51 am

Years back, ex saa crew wanted to start an airline IIRC Cantoon Airlines. They wanted to fly Johannesburg - Cape Town - Miami - Houston and Johannesburg - west Africa with 2 B747 combi's. The USA route would have been supported by transporting on contract the flower and fruit exports and the west Africa route by mining equipment. It just never materialized.
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Re: A340 (ORT)

Unread post by Mark Lawrence » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:42 pm

evanb wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:25 pm

There is no premium, surprisingly, when buying economy tickets on the direct flights. The premium is really in the business class tickets. So for ordinary folk the direct flights make a really good value option. The challenge is that the airlines can't make the economics of ULH flying work without selling some very expensive business class seats!
If there is no premium for the direct flights, then the airlines are just being plain greedy. For the 20+ years since I left SA, I have been flying back to visit family every 3 or so years. Every time I go to look at the fares for the direct flights as opposed to traveling through Europe or the Middle East, the fare difference is extraordinary. I have a son in school and so my travel times are not really flexible, and that is probably the reason for the differences in fares. The only two occasions where the direct flight prices matched were when I did have the flexibility of traveling in non-peak times and once Delta through Dakar and SAA from JFK did work for me. And when I say difference, I have seen anything from $400 to almost $1,000 in the difference between the direct flight and going through another location. When there are 3 of us traveling, that is a huge amount of money.

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