Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

What your instructor never taught you. Continuing your education and learning from others. Flight safety topics and accident/incident discussions.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
jimdavis
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 15689
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:46 am
Closest Airfield: FAGG
Location: Wilderness
Has liked: 216 times
Been liked: 213 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri May 03, 2019 9:40 pm

apollo11 wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 9:28 pm
:lol: Check out his workspace, what an untidy dude, just throws stuff down, including the AoA unit... bet this is the guy like a mate I once had that would work on motorcycles in his lounge, parts all over the house even in the kitchen...
Perry, I am afraid that sounds exactly like me when I was young - but I have since learned to keep a fairly tidy workshop. But I have to admit my BM lives in the spare bedroom and visitors have to put up with it!. :lol: :lol: :lol:

jim
These users liked the author jimdavis for the post (total 2):
apollo11MadMacs
"PPL Manual"
"Flight Tests"
"So Others May Live"
"Flying in Africa" Vol 1
"Flying in Africa" Vol 2
Look inside these books, or buy them at: www.jimdavis.co.za.
User avatar
jimdavis
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 15689
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:46 am
Closest Airfield: FAGG
Location: Wilderness
Has liked: 216 times
Been liked: 213 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by jimdavis » Fri May 03, 2019 9:41 pm

Yikes! That looks like serious thread drift. Sorry Mods - sorrrrrreeeeee! :D

jim
"PPL Manual"
"Flight Tests"
"So Others May Live"
"Flying in Africa" Vol 1
"Flying in Africa" Vol 2
Look inside these books, or buy them at: www.jimdavis.co.za.
User avatar
Romeo E.T.
8000 Tousand
8000 Tousand
Posts: 8691
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:49 pm
Closest Airfield: FAJS
Location: JHB INTL/Kpt Park/Rand Apt
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 72 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Fri May 03, 2019 10:23 pm

Image
These users liked the author Romeo E.T. for the post:
Ugly Duckling
sometimes we suffer a bit from C.R.A.F.T. sickness..Can't Remember A F@#%ing Thing

https://www.facebook.com/ralf.t.schulz
User avatar
Romeo E.T.
8000 Tousand
8000 Tousand
Posts: 8691
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:49 pm
Closest Airfield: FAJS
Location: JHB INTL/Kpt Park/Rand Apt
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 72 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Sat May 04, 2019 12:10 am

Ugly Duckling wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 10:59 am
Another interesting article
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/2/18518 ... Y64OrVM1RA
discovered this link elsewhere, was almost going to post, then I see it was already posted

makes for good reading

worth a repost/quote
sometimes we suffer a bit from C.R.A.F.T. sickness..Can't Remember A F@#%ing Thing

https://www.facebook.com/ralf.t.schulz
User avatar
biffvj
Stall training
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:29 pm
Closest Airfield: Polokwane Civil
Location: Polokwane
Has liked: 10 times
Been liked: 15 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by biffvj » Sat May 04, 2019 5:24 am

Wat die werkswinkel van vol is loop die mond van oor!
A true friend has the guts to tell you what you need to hear.
User avatar
Hop Harrigan
Frequent AvComer
Posts: 996
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:55 pm
Has liked: 3 times
Been liked: 13 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Hop Harrigan » Sat May 04, 2019 8:19 am

US Aviation press’ harsh criticism of Boeing CEO’s response
Hop
https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/boeing ... community/
There is no gravity...the Earth sucks
dollar
Take off Clearance
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:48 am
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 7 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by dollar » Sat May 04, 2019 8:54 am

Interesting video on the internals of the AoA sensor - the catalyst? The mechanics look ok but the little motor like encoder thingy? I wonder how often they fail?

I am sure they fail quite often but no major consequences because the aerie is not designed to be absolutely dependent on this thing - until the Max. Unintended consequences caused by a component that costs a few dollars to make. Ha but it’s used in a jet so it probably costs a few thousand dollars!?

Looks like Boeing bet the farm on this thing - unintentionally?
These users liked the author dollar for the post:
MadMacs
Airwayfreak
Frequent AvComer
Posts: 974
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:56 am
Closest Airfield: FAJS
Location: Johannesburg
Has liked: 4 times
Been liked: 20 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sat May 04, 2019 9:05 am

Hop Harrigan wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:19 am
US Aviation press’ harsh criticism of Boeing CEO’s response
Hop
https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/boeing ... community/
CEO's are briefed to not admit liability in events such as these. The listeriosis issue comes to mind for example. The CEO admitting liability, opens a floodgate of litigation. There will always be those who criticise CEO's actions.
User avatar
jvdl
Frequent AvComer
Posts: 690
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:25 pm
Closest Airfield: FABL
Has liked: 9 times
Been liked: 7 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by jvdl » Sat May 04, 2019 10:41 am

MadMacs wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 8:43 pm
A humorous look at an AoA sensor; not for sensitive viewers though; contains a lot of swearing :lol:
AvE is a bit rough around the edges, but very intelligent and knowledgeable guy. Check out the rest of his channel too.
"A man provided with paper, pencil, and rubber, and subject to strict discipline, is in effect a universal machine." - Alan Turing

Open Aircraft Register: https://aircraftregister.co.za <-- :!: Intermittent uptime due to load shedding :!:
User avatar
MadMacs
Too Tousand
Too Tousand
Posts: 2290
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:41 pm
Closest Airfield: GRJ
Location: On my bed
Has liked: 142 times
Been liked: 25 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by MadMacs » Sat May 04, 2019 1:14 pm

What that video shows, is how flimsy that thing is. It looks like it's designed by a 6th grader. Those pickups on the rvdt won't last long with the least amount of vibration.
The closest I get to flying these days is when I put my cellphone in 'flight mode'.
Mouser
Rolling
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:31 pm
Closest Airfield: King Shaka
Location: Durban
Has liked: 12 times
Been liked: 9 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by Mouser » Sun May 05, 2019 7:03 am

MadMacs wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 1:14 pm
What that video shows, is how flimsy that thing is. It looks like it's designed by a 6th grader. Those pickups on the rvdt won't last long with the least amount of vibration.
I'm sure this has been quoted:

https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/2/18518 ... Y64OrVM1RA

Not sure of accuracy but this article quotes:

"It gets worse: over the last five years, 50 flights on US commercial airplanes experienced AoA sensor issues, compared to an estimated 76.8 million flights in US airspace in the same time frame. Sure, that’s a small number, but it’s still six times above the maximum rate set by the FAA for “hazardous” systems. And that elevated risk of failure is why few commercial airliners make flight-critical decisions based solely on AoA sensor inputs."
These users liked the author Mouser for the post:
dollar
User avatar
heisan
Fife Thousand feet
Fife Thousand feet
Posts: 5370
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:45 pm
Closest Airfield: Rhino Park
Location: Pretoria
Has liked: 26 times
Been liked: 81 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by heisan » Sun May 05, 2019 8:13 pm

dollar wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:54 am
Interesting video on the internals of the AoA sensor - the catalyst? The mechanics look ok but the little motor like encoder thingy? I wonder how often they fail?
From a link I posted earlier:
Screen Shot 2019-03-29 at 8.10.52 AM.png
So including early life failures and external mechanical damage, they still average 93,000 hours between failures. Not exactly 'often'...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Justin Schoeman

ZU-FSR (Raven)
dollar
Take off Clearance
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:48 am
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 7 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by dollar » Sun May 05, 2019 9:27 pm

heisan wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 8:13 pm
dollar wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:54 am
Interesting video on the internals of the AoA sensor - the catalyst? The mechanics look ok but the little motor like encoder thingy? I wonder how often they fail?
From a link I posted earlier:
Screen Shot 2019-03-29 at 8.10.52 AM.png
So including early life failures and external mechanical damage, they still average 93,000 hours between failures. Not exactly 'often'...
Mmmm, 747 fleet? I assume that they are all very similar? I read somewhere that the failure rate was much higher but can’t tell you where so the point is moot.

I don’t believe that they were designed and built as a super critical part anyway. Not like the big bolts that keep the wings attached. In fairness it would be a long stretch of the imagination (pre Max) that this thing would fail and create the chain of events that lead to the two crashes?

But we don’t even know this to be correct either? It could have been some other glitch. Power supply, connector, etc.
User avatar
StressMerchant
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1294
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:57 am
Closest Airfield: Cab
Location: The Matrix
Has liked: 5 times
Been liked: 55 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by StressMerchant » Mon May 06, 2019 8:21 am

Not sure of accuracy but this article quotes:

"It gets worse: over the last five years, 50 flights on US commercial airplanes experienced AoA sensor issues, compared to an estimated 76.8 million flights in US airspace in the same time frame. Sure, that’s a small number, but it’s still six times above the maximum rate set by the FAA for “hazardous” systems. And that elevated risk of failure is why few commercial airliners make flight-critical decisions based solely on AoA sensor inputs."
I suspect the author of the report has confused the concepts of component and system.

Components can fail, for a variety of reasons including external causes. AoA sensors can be taken out by a birdstrike, even if their design life is a billion hours. The system architecture has to ensure that the system achieves the required reliability, even if a component in the system is compromised.
I believe the risks I take are justified by the sheer love of the life I lead.
— Charles A. Lindbergh
User avatar
MadMacs
Too Tousand
Too Tousand
Posts: 2290
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:41 pm
Closest Airfield: GRJ
Location: On my bed
Has liked: 142 times
Been liked: 25 times

Re: Ethiopian Airlines plane crashes on way to Nairobi

Unread post by MadMacs » Mon May 06, 2019 9:28 am

heisan wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 8:13 pm
dollar wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 8:54 am
Interesting video on the internals of the AoA sensor - the catalyst? The mechanics look ok but the little motor like encoder thingy? I wonder how often they fail?
From a link I posted earlier:
Screen Shot 2019-03-29 at 8.10.52 AM.png

So including early life failures and external mechanical damage, they still average 93,000 hours between failures. Not exactly 'often'...
Those sensors get changed often, the aircraft might have 67000 hours on its airframe but the sensors themselves far less, so your statistics mean eff all. We have a scenario of two failures and two crashes, doesn't exactly inspire any confidence in them.
The closest I get to flying these days is when I put my cellphone in 'flight mode'.

Return to “Academy & Flight Safety”