Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

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Jack Welles
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon May 06, 2019 6:45 pm

Sad for one who likes to think that he's learnt something about writing over many a long year to find out that people totally don't understand what's been written. Report card obviously reads: must do better :lol:

I have not read a single post that ever suggested that one couldn't critisize a regulator. Not one! So that's a strawman or red herring if you prefer a more fishy example :wink:

Also nobody that I've read on this forum has ever said that the regulator didn't do wrong. Again a strawman. That's pretty obvious from the tribunal's judgment and it would be a silly-billy that said any different.

=D> Good! I'm glad we've cleared that up :wink:

What has been suggested by at least three of us is that it might be a better plan going forward for both parties to try and work productively together without silly public insults etc. That's if they want to actually rescue something worthwhile out of the entire fiasco.

Complicated, huh? :lol:
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Wildcat_004 » Mon May 06, 2019 7:03 pm

“...yet the 3 of you.....”......very clear that as was said: never changed your tune regardless of what the Judge said. CAA never even tried “working together to resolve” any issues. That is very clear.....they were not interested. Everything they came up with was proven incorrect at the time of the finding, but they were not interested in working together. They don’t understand the words.....working together.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by OG » Mon May 06, 2019 8:46 pm

Some years ago, the Department of Mineral Regulations, the regulator of the mining industry, had inspectors that would conduct ad hoc safety inspections at mines, and would stop entire mines for days or weeks because of sometimes minor infringements, citing safety concerns. I had my business shut down for a week because I did not provide an inspector with a R500 pair of safety shoes. This cost the industry billions and continued for years, because the DMR thought themselves to be above the law. There were negotiations and workshops and and trying to be nice, until one mining group sued the Department, the Principal and the inspector, jointly and severally and won.
Overnight the attitude changed, and the hammer and stick approach by the department became one of engagement and co-operation. They now issue notices to comply, and depending on the severity of the transgression, the mine is given time to make representations, debate the issue or take corrective action.
This Cemair episode has been ego driven from both sides (CEO's have to defend their business), but sometimes those being regulated have to make a stand against over-reach by burocrats.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Wildcat_004 » Tue May 07, 2019 6:32 am

Well said OG......you hit the nail on the head.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by tansg » Tue May 07, 2019 8:14 am

Thermalator wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 2:57 pm
The only reason I read this forum is to try to understand the bad thinking,Yours, Airway freak, tansg
And this is why I stayed away from Avcom so long until asked to come back and explain how certain things are perceived and interpreted by regulators.

As per usual the Avcom attitude of: if my opinion does not agree with yours (no evidence or logic required) it is wrong, rears its head and the discussion will descend into another UFC style debate.

As I have stated previously on this thread, I don't have a dog in this fight so I don't care what the outcome is. I don't work for CAA, I don't even live in SA anymore. The sole reason for my postings was to provide an alternative viewpoint of regulator accountabilities and responsibilities and how a regulator perceives certain issues and the way that regulator processes and procedures work. If you disagree with that its cool, I don't care. But I can guarantee you if you do not take heed of the content of Jack Welles and my postings you will never have a positive working relationship with your regulator and you will have an endless number of issues in the future. Take it or leave it, up to you.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by GL » Tue May 07, 2019 8:25 am

There is an old truism - "You cant fight City hall."
And when it comes to aviation regulation it's doubly true - as they just play the safety card - and that trumps all others.
That's why I keep banging on about process - as Jack Wells says - sit down and negotiate (over a "cup of tea"!) like adults - no throwing of toys from either side.
And if that fails have an ombudsman or a mediator that can give a fast neutral decision that keeps the parties out of the courts and gives a fast resolution.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Falafel » Tue May 07, 2019 9:02 am

GL wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:25 am
There is an old truism - "You cant fight City hall."
And when it comes to aviation regulation it's doubly true - as they just play the safety card - and that trumps all others.
That's why I keep banging on about process - as Jack Wells says - sit down and negotiate (over a "cup of tea"!) like adults - no throwing of toys from either side.
And if that fails have an ombudsman or a mediator that can give a fast neutral decision that keeps the parties out of the courts and gives a fast resolution.
Your criticism's of the CAA seem to tell another story... agree with you but constantly going on about ineptitude and incompetence doesnt a negotiation make IMHO...
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Chuck » Tue May 07, 2019 10:33 am

I think this all boils down to attitudes.
For the system to work both operator and the regulator must act in good faith.:

The operator must comply as best they can with the regulations recognizing the regulations can be nonsensical, misunderstood and may not always promote safety. The operator must be able to proactively deal with such cases.

The regulator must recognize these efforts and actively assist the operator in succeeding with the bussiness and clarify and adjust these regulations where required. Grounding an operation must be seen and counted as a failure on behalf of the regulator.

Given the outcome of the appeal I cannot escape the impression that the regulator was not acting in good faith in the CEMAIR case and did not act as to avoid grounding the operation.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Wildcat_004 » Tue May 07, 2019 10:40 am

Well said Chuck. There was no effort from the regulator at all. They came with a hidden agenda. That was very clear.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Tue May 07, 2019 12:45 pm

Wildcat_004 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:40 am
They came with a hidden agenda. That was very clear.
if it was clear then it wasn't hidden :?
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Falafel » Tue May 07, 2019 12:46 pm

Jack Welles wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 12:45 pm
Wildcat_004 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:40 am
They came with a hidden agenda. That was very clear.
if it was clear then it wasn't hidden :?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Falafel » Thu May 09, 2019 12:24 pm

LvdM wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 10:55 am
This is Laura van der Molen. I am the Chief Financial Officer of CemAir. I (we) have lived through a targeted attack by the SACAA for the past 6 months with the sole intention of closing down the airline. On 29 April 2019 the airline was vindicated. The Appeal judgement is comprehensively conclusive. The CAA acted unlawfully and without merit. There were no grounds for any of the actions taken. This is indisputable. The Director herself is found deficient in "failing to apply her mind", a condition aptly described in the judgement as "yet a more profound problem". Yet, here we are almost 7 days after the whitewash victory and still the SACAA defiantly display media notices of their illegal actions on their website and crow about how CemAir still cannot operate, whilst the airline is headlined by the brainwashed media as still having to answer for its "deficiencies". I am astounded. Where is the justice? What is certain is that the industry is afraid to speak up. I received advice from several key industry players warning against standing up to the regulator, no matter the merits. A battered wife syndrome in its most mature form. And yet South Africa’s Constitution exists for this very reason, to protect all citizens and to ensure that administrators act within the confines of their mandate and not for political or personal cause. Action must be taken. The industry is dying. Urgent resuscitation is required.
Sorry for sounding a little "stupid" but then can we gauge that Cemair WANT to restart operations from this post? Nothing other than a question relating to the future of Cemair :?: Is the intention to being again in SA or "restart"?
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Felix Gosher » Fri May 10, 2019 12:06 am

A Great South African Airline... offering a great service to South Africans and foreigners.... hounded by an agenda, fostered behind closed doors... tall trees catch the most wind.... simple as that...
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by GL » Fri May 10, 2019 7:22 am

Felix Gosher wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:06 am
A Great South African Airline... offering a great service to South Africans and foreigners.... hounded by an agenda, fostered behind closed doors... tall trees catch the most wind.... simple as that...
Felix - what was the agenda they were hounded by?
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by marius scheepers » Fri May 10, 2019 11:13 am

Felix Gosher wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:06 am
A Great South African Airline... offering a great service to South Africans and foreigners.... hounded by an agenda, fostered behind closed doors... tall trees catch the most wind.... simple as that...

...... here we go again another 20 pages on conspiracy theories et all :roll:
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