Cemair grounded - wins Appeal yet again!

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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Falafel » Fri May 10, 2019 11:40 am

marius scheepers wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 11:13 am
Felix Gosher wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:06 am
A Great South African Airline... offering a great service to South Africans and foreigners.... hounded by an agenda, fostered behind closed doors... tall trees catch the most wind.... simple as that...

...... here we go again another 20 pages on conspiracy theories et all :roll:
Yup.... maybe they just couldn't get along :? :? :? :?

All the BS aside rules and regulations and the implementation thereof are done with people... down to relationships, and the ability to see eye to eye... put them all on an emotional intelligence course and maybe things will improve...

Lots of chest beating going on here... like two cats fighting... lots of noise and performance and here the public and Avcom speculate on the pile of fluff left over.... with neither party providing anything of real value...
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Ugly Duckling » Sat May 11, 2019 7:43 am

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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sat May 11, 2019 9:27 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:45 pm
Sad for one who likes to think that he's learnt something about writing over many a long year to find out that people totally don't understand what's been written. Report card obviously reads: must do better :lol:

I have not read a single post that ever suggested that one couldn't critisize a regulator. Not one! So that's a strawman or red herring if you prefer a more fishy example :wink:

Also nobody that I've read on this forum has ever said that the regulator didn't do wrong. Again a strawman. That's pretty obvious from the tribunal's judgment and it would be a silly-billy that said any different.

=D> Good! I'm glad we've cleared that up :wink:

What has been suggested by at least three of us is that it might be a better plan going forward for both parties to try and work productively together without silly public insults etc. That's if they want to actually rescue something worthwhile out of the entire fiasco.

Complicated, huh? :lol:
I'm quite chuffed to be classified as one of the three.

There is an old adage that says there are three sides to every story. We three mouseketeers have generally not really taken sides here. I know I said that the CAA was too harsh in grounding CemAir but I also said that CemAir's ducks were not in a row. The tribunal states quite clearly that the CAA acted irrationally and that the grounding was unjustified. The tribunal also states that CemAir's unruly ducks do exist if one bothers to refrain from cherry picking the report. So I reckon I scored two out of two here.

These naughty ducks have been highlighted regularly by employees (disgruntled or not) over the years. I've said this once, but I'll say it again. The industry is tiny and people talk.



So thermalator, I suggest that "bad thinking" may just very well be a figment of your imagination
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Sun May 12, 2019 10:31 pm

DanPerkins wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:27 pm
Could someone please help me and cherry pick where the ducks are not in the row? I can't seem to find anything that is not covered by a CAP.
DP. Do you honestly believe Poppy woke up one morning and thought, who can I mess around today? MvdM has conceded on this thread that some ducks were out of line. I don't think there is more to be said
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by richard C » Mon May 13, 2019 8:47 am

DanPerkins wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 7:39 am
I'll take that as: "you can't find one either".

As you see I'm brand new here in this esteemed hall of knowledge, and I'm faced with 82 pages of baffling legalese.

I'm manifestly no lawyer - I can't even spell suing (Wait, sorry, cancel that last - I can in fact spell suing), and I'm looking for a spot of guidance here from the great local minds that mutter darkly about misaligned ducks that fail to squeak.

I have no idea what Poppy thinks about in the morning, or if indeed she thinks, and this is hardly germane to the findings of the CAAC, which is the legal document currently under scrutiny, and where the crooked ducks purportedly hide in plain sight.
Made my day Mr. Perkins.
=D> :lol:
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Airwayfreak » Mon May 13, 2019 10:05 am

richard C wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 8:47 am
DanPerkins wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 7:39 am
I'll take that as: "you can't find one either".

As you see I'm brand new here in this esteemed hall of knowledge, and I'm faced with 82 pages of baffling legalese.

I'm manifestly no lawyer - I can't even spell suing (Wait, sorry, cancel that last - I can in fact spell suing), and I'm looking for a spot of guidance here from the great local minds that mutter darkly about misaligned ducks that fail to squeak.

I have no idea what Poppy thinks about in the morning, or if indeed she thinks, and this is hardly germane to the findings of the CAAC, which is the legal document currently under scrutiny, and where the crooked ducks purportedly hide in plain sight.
Made my day Mr. Perkins.
=D> :lol:
DP. Perhaps you should stick to selling caravans :lol: :lol: :lol:

What is the purpose of a CAP other than to re-align misaligned ducks? And this is exactly the crux of the matter. CAP's are indeed in place which indicates quite clearly that all was not 100% procedurally at Cem Air. MvdM concedes this. The CAA acted harshly in grounding CemAir. I think we all agree to this as well. This appeals outcome simply vindicates CemAir's stance that the grounding was irrational and unjustified.

Having a CAP in place for these boisterous ducks does not fix the problem does it ?
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by GL » Mon May 13, 2019 11:31 am

CemAir press release:
Johannesburg, 13 May 2019
CAA GROUNDING OF CEMAIR OVERTURNED AS IRRATIONAL AND FACTUALLY WRONG
CemAir Airline is pleased to announce that all actions taken by the South African Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) to ground and suspend the airline were overturned by the Civil Aviation Appeal Committee (CAAC) on 29 April 2019.
This significant judgement comprehensively addressed the CAA’s notices which halted CemAir’s service in the peak December 2018 and January 2019 holiday season, needlessly inconveniencing tens of thousands of travelers and ultimately resulting in hundreds of job losses. In addition, the cost to the South African economy from the lost flights to transport tourists over the busy year-end, and in the loss of air connectivity to support the economies of regional towns, is inestimably large.
The Appeal Committee’s 82-page judgement described the CAA’s decision as containing “material errors” rendering it “… irrational, arbitrary, unreasonable and procedurally unfair.” The decision to ground the entire fleet and suspend the operating certificate is described as “..grossly unfair administrative conduct both procedurally and substantively..”. A further paragraph states, “This entire approach adopted by the SACAA to suspend the Appellant's (CemAir) AOC….was legally and factually wrong..”. The judgement went so far as to name certain CAA inspectors and officials when it overturned their decisions confirming that the action “....is strongly suggestive of a closed mind and thus actual bias”
This landslide victory for CemAir completely vindicates the airline and is a clear and unequivocal confirmation that no valid safety concern exists or existed at the airline. The hearing took place over five days allowing for in-depth consideration of hundreds of pages of evidence. After three weeks of consideration the Committee found in CemAir’s favour on all points.
CemAir has an unwavering commitment to aviation safety and in the pursuit of excellence voluntarily aligned the company to the stringent IATA operation safety audit (IOSA) program and United Nations inspections, all of which it has passed on many occasions.
The victory however does not allow us to resume operations just yet. During the nearly four-month duration of the appeal, our air operating certificate expired through the ordinary passage of time. CemAir is working with the CAA on the renewal of the AOC however this has reached an impasse as the CAA intends to assign the same inspectors castigated for bias and incompetence in the CAAC judgement. We are amazed that the CAA staff concerned have not been suspended and investigated. Inspectors acting beyond the regulations pose a safety and commercial risk to this key industry and the CAA’s approach to the matter fails to recognize the seriousness of the issue.
We take this opportunity to apologise to all our customers who have been inconvenienced by the suspension of our service. We also apologise to customers affected by the slower than expected refund process. Unfortunately, every refund claim has to be thoroughly investigated as some have been found to be fake claims and others have already been refunded through partner channels. CemAir remains a committed aviation partner and we look forward to emerging from this difficult time as a stronger organization.
The CAA”s mandate is the safety oversight of the South African civil aviation Industry. In the absence of any substantive safety findings against CemAir we can only wonder what the real motivation is for the grounding. It is of course no secret that the airline industry in South Africa has been tough for newcomers since the mid 1990’s. Of the last sixteen airlines to launch scheduled services only one is still flying today. It cannot be true that this bloodbath 94% failure rate is as a result of these airlines getting their business model wrong, so it is safe to assume that there is an issue with the regulatory environment.
The CAA’s inflammatory press statements made within minutes of issuing the grounding and suspension orders, highlight a further major misdirection. Not only are statements such as these prohibited in terms of the Civil Aviation Act but the CAA’s actions suggest that their focus is not on safety but publicity instead. These statements remain on the CAA website at the time of writing, notwithstanding the fact that they cannot be supported by fact. Our calls to have these statements retracted have been ignored.
We share the travelling public’s concern that the CAA could be found to be acting outside the law and against the Constitution of South Africa. We expect the Board of the CAA to suspend all involved pending the outcome of an impartial investigation into the matter. It is in the interest of the flying public and South Africa at large that the CAA effectively and efficiently implement objective global aviation safety standards. We further call on the Minister of Transport to launch an investigation into the matter.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Falafel » Mon May 13, 2019 11:48 am

GL wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 11:31 am
CemAir press release:
The victory however does not allow us to resume operations just yet.
Ok then imagine this is the intention eventually and they would then be back... although dont see this press release as a way to expedite the process myself... perhaps a heart to heart with the relevant parties would have been in Cemair's best interests (rather than taking this thing head on with an aggressive press release) would be more conducive to moving on... :?
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Johan.botha » Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 pm

You are a bit of a one string banjo there Falafel.

A society is supposed to be governed by laws not relationships. You seem to promote that stroking the CAA's ego should be part of the solution and I cannot see why this should even be a consideration. If you have clear and concise regulations and documents showing compliance then you have yourself a right (not priveledge) to operate. Aviation safety isn't about pleasing the chief so he allows you to fly another day.

Seems the CAA see themselves as the rulers of aviation not the regulator of an aviation industry. Rulers issue decree's to there subjects, regulators follow regulations.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon May 13, 2019 4:41 pm

Johan.botha wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:05 pm
You are a bit of a one string banjo there Falafel.
A society is supposed to be governed by laws not relationships. You seem to promote that stroking the CAA's ego should be part of the solution and I cannot see why this should even be a consideration. If you have clear and concise regulations and documents showing compliance then you have yourself a right (not priveledge) to operate. Aviation safety isn't about pleasing the chief so he allows you to fly another da.
Seems the CAA see themselves as the rulers of aviation not the regulator of an aviation industry. Rulers issue decree's to there subjects, regulators follow regulations.
Nope, it's the regulated that have to follow regulations. It's the regulator's job to make sure they do. It's not a popularity contest :lol:

And you reckon relationships don't matter? It would seem you're more likely to be a pilot than a businessman ...
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Johan.botha » Mon May 13, 2019 5:47 pm

Um that's an odd view....the regulator has to follow the regulations too. And the constitution. And PAJA. And its own Act etc.

This thread is a bit stale. The same 'names' say the same things with the occasional DanPerkins or GL offering a new thought that is then swamped in the same old lines. I am not sure if all of Jack Welles, Falalel, Airwaysfreak work for the CAA (it could even be one) but the obviousness of the promotion of a single view means this isn't a debate but a sermon.

I notice the mods are quick to intervene in other threads but have allowed this one to become toxic. Think there should be more consistency in the approach.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Wildcat_004 » Mon May 13, 2019 6:03 pm

Johan.....like you say ....the same names crop up like after every comment and just keep on defending the CAA...seems like they can’t read properly. At no stage did the CAA even attempt to engage in any reasonable manner. Look at their response on their website.....arrogant.....is the only word. They just can’t accept that they got 2 hidings in a short space due to incompetence.
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Jack Welles » Mon May 13, 2019 6:12 pm

Johan.botha wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:47 pm
The same 'names' say the same things with the occasional DanPerkins or GL offering a new thought that is then swamped in the same old lines. I am not sure if all of Jack Welles, Falalel, Airwaysfreak work for the CAA (it could even be one) but the obviousness of the promotion of a single view means this isn't a debate but a sermon.
Pot meet kettle ... :lol:

As an aside: who has a minimal profile and who gives detail? Grow up, lad, grow up!
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Burner » Mon May 13, 2019 6:37 pm

Changing the subject slightly. What has happened with the two Dash 8 Q4's and the CRJ900. They were leased as I believe. Are they still sitting in SA, racking up a bill?
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Re: Cemair grounded - and WINS Appeal again!

Unread post by Falafel » Tue May 14, 2019 7:53 am

Johan.botha wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 5:47 pm
Um that's an odd view....the regulator has to follow the regulations too. And the constitution. And PAJA. And its own Act etc.

This thread is a bit stale. The same 'names' say the same things with the occasional DanPerkins or GL offering a new thought that is then swamped in the same old lines. I am not sure if all of Jack Welles, Falalel, Airwaysfreak work for the CAA (it could even be one) but the obviousness of the promotion of a single view means this isn't a debate but a sermon.

I notice the mods are quick to intervene in other threads but have allowed this one to become toxic. Think there should be more consistency in the approach.
Dont believe I ever stood up for the CAA other than to suggest more dialogue... keep going on the route of chastising and see where it gets you... aggression even when/if one is in the right never has a good outcome.

Why is it that when there may be a contrary view there is an accusation levelled as "working for the CAA"... I have had enough fights in my time to realise when I should have stepped down and tried a different angle. It seems clear to me that the CAA have messed this one up but highlighting shortcomings of incompetence most often only creates more of a defensive attitude from the "other" party. Its negotiation 101... especially when the one you are up against has authority... been there and done it many times.

The thread will become toxic when every post is chastising and each one sticking a venemous knife "in"...

CAA is here to stay... the topic should rather be in what form the industry can work with the CAA...

Cemair are now in the situation where as they say the same regulators are dealing with them... dealing with the same regulators in the same way, what do you think is going to happen? They might get flying again but for how long at this rate :?: :?: :?:

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