B206 down in the Hudson River

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B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by jus » Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 pm

Image

No fatalities. Video here: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/15/1862 ... -york-city

Additional videos with other perspectives here: https://nypost.com/2019/05/15/helicopte ... th-street/
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by GL » Thu May 16, 2019 5:05 pm

Tail rotor failure?
Those floats seem to explosively inflate like air bags?
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by Arch » Thu May 16, 2019 7:03 pm

GL wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 5:05 pm
Tail rotor failure?
Those floats seem to explosively inflate like air bags?
Floats pop quickly. Rotation too slow for tr failure, more like tail rotor loss of authority due to slow right hand turn, exacerbated by stiff breeze which possibly blew the rotor downwash into the tail, further aggravating it. Reckon the pilot ran out of talent and the chat with the boss is going to be awkward, slow right turns in a 206 are known to bite
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by allanroy » Thu May 16, 2019 8:31 pm

Terrifying video shows a helicopter spiraling out of control before crashing into the Hudson River. Thankfully, the pilot survived. https://7ny.tv/2Hu8iMd

https://www.facebook.com/ABC7NY/videos/ ... 56529/?t=0
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by jimdavis » Thu May 16, 2019 9:35 pm

Arch wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:03 pm
GL wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 5:05 pm
Tail rotor failure?
Those floats seem to explosively inflate like air bags?
Floats pop quickly. Rotation too slow for tr failure, more like tail rotor loss of authority due to slow right hand turn, exacerbated by stiff breeze which possibly blew the rotor downwash into the tail, further aggravating it. Reckon the pilot ran out of talent and the chat with the boss is going to be awkward, slow right turns in a 206 are known to bite
That post just reminds me why I don't trust helicopters. Imagine trying to certify a fixed wing that didn't like slow right hand turns :shock:

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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by Captain Gyro » Thu May 16, 2019 10:57 pm

Despite flying gyros which I trust due to their simplicity, I also don’t trust helicopters. Too much to go wrong. Almost saw a R44 lose it with loss of tail rotor effectiveness at the Getaway Show in Somerset West a few years ago. Pilot was extremely lucky to catch it at the last moment preventing a huge tragedy. Was visibly shaken.

Flying with its associated risks is bad enough, and normally engine failure should be one’s main concern, but having to worry that your flying machine is going to suddenly lose control just because the wind changes direction slightly, and you have no yaw authority just doesn’t sit well with me.
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by Choppaboy » Fri May 17, 2019 12:03 am

Captain Gyro wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:57 pm
Despite flying gyros which I trust due to their simplicity, I also don’t trust helicopters. Too much to go wrong. Almost saw a R44 lose it with loss of tail rotor effectiveness at the Getaway Show in Somerset West a few years ago. Pilot was extremely lucky to catch it at the last moment preventing a huge tragedy. Was visibly shaken.

Flying with its associated risks is bad enough, and normally engine failure should be one’s main concern, but having to worry that your flying machine is going to suddenly lose control just because the wind changes direction slightly, and you have no yaw authority just doesn’t sit well with me.
I hear what you say , lots of variables and threats than can change the intended flight outcome quickly with helicopters. However, no problem when one flies these mechanical mice within their envelopes , exactly the same as with your aircraft . Just have to focus a tad more during high alert times , just like with any aircraft at certain times of flight phase , being aware of the possible threats that could come into play and being ready to counter them at the onset already.. and thus ideally preventing mishaps. It’s all in an envelopes work:) :)
Unfortunately , as it seems judging by the footage, there was not sufficient height for the pilot to recover in this case where the helicopter appears to have been flown into a state of flight outside it’s design manoeuvre envelope :shock:
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by jus » Sun May 19, 2019 9:39 am

I found this short video to be very instructive regarding the forms and causes of LTE...

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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by homebuilt » Sun May 19, 2019 11:41 am

Not a chopper pilot but for those in the know, how would a pilot / is it still possible for a pilot, if this should happen to him, to get out of the situation before loss of control is experienced or is there no alternative to taking a swim?
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by Christo » Sun May 19, 2019 2:03 pm

I would imagine you drop the collective to minimize torque would be one thing but then you need height to be able to do so.
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by Bront » Mon May 20, 2019 9:57 am

Firstly, LTE is BS, no such thing. What people call LTE is actually PPP, Piss Poor Piloting. In certain conditions you can overpower any tail rotor. Bell were infamous for putting just enough tail rotor (and engine for that matter) in their helicopters and then inventing LTE to make up for their crap design. The 206 series was pretty bad for this. It's pretty easy when heavy and slow, going down wind and making a right turn, to reach the limits of the tail rotor. The Longranger was worse for this because of the extra momentum of the longer tail, IF you let a right yaw develop. Because you were close to the limit of tail rotor control, trying to stop the yaw, once it had started, often requires more peddle than available. Often pilots don't use full peddle to recover, maybe they are scared they will break something, I don't know, I've never understood why. If you are using full peddle there is only 1 way to recover and that is to reduce power so that the tail rotor doesn't have to work so hard. In my experience, the amount you need to reduce power is very small, as long as you do it straight away. Most of the times it barely effects your height.

What we see in this video though is the complete opposite. The yaw starts of gently enough but the pilot pulls power, that's why he climbs, which just makes his yaw worse. Then he clearly panics and dumps the collective. At this point his attention has turned inside the cockpit in a frantic effort to inflate the floats and he stops flying the helicopter. The rest is inevitable.

What he should have done was, full left peddle immediately and slightly lower the collective, complete the turn into wind and then pull power and carry on like nothing ever happened. It's really that simple.

I blame it on bad instruction and this belief in LTE. I think some pilots get into this situation and think 'LTE, nothing I can do' and give up.

I guess in fixed wing terms it's like getting into a stall and then pulling back on the controls, i.e. using the wrong recovery technique ain't going to save you.
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by cage » Mon May 20, 2019 10:23 am

Bront wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 9:57 am
Firstly, LTE is BS, no such thing.
Lack of Training and Expertise ;)
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by E816 » Mon May 20, 2019 10:27 am

Bront wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 9:57 am
Firstly, LTE is BS, no such thing. What people call LTE is actually PPP, Piss Poor Piloting. In certain conditions you can overpower any tail rotor. Bell were infamous for putting just enough tail rotor (and engine for that matter) in their helicopters and then inventing LTE to make up for their crap design. The 206 series was pretty bad for this. It's pretty easy when heavy and slow, going down wind and making a right turn, to reach the limits of the tail rotor. The Longranger was worse for this because of the extra momentum of the longer tail, IF you let a right yaw develop. Because you were close to the limit of tail rotor control, trying to stop the yaw, once it had started, often requires more peddle than available. Often pilots don't use full peddle to recover, maybe they are scared they will break something, I don't know, I've never understood why. If you are using full peddle there is only 1 way to recover and that is to reduce power so that the tail rotor doesn't have to work so hard. In my experience, the amount you need to reduce power is very small, as long as you do it straight away. Most of the times it barely effects your height.

What we see in this video though is the complete opposite. The yaw starts of gently enough but the pilot pulls power, that's why he climbs, which just makes his yaw worse. Then he clearly panics and dumps the collective. At this point his attention has turned inside the cockpit in a frantic effort to inflate the floats and he stops flying the helicopter. The rest is inevitable.

What he should have done was, full left peddle immediately and slightly lower the collective, complete the turn into wind and then pull power and carry on like nothing ever happened. It's really that simple.

I blame it on bad instruction and this belief in LTE. I think some pilots get into this situation and think 'LTE, nothing I can do' and give up.

I guess in fixed wing terms it's like getting into a stall and then pulling back on the controls, i.e. using the wrong recovery technique ain't going to save you.
While I won't go as far as saying LTE doesn't exist, I do agree with Bront that this was not LTE, and more pilot error more than anything. I believ if it were LTE the onset of the spin in that scenario would've been more violent.

My view is the pilot just expected too much from the machine, pulling her into OGE hover in gusty conditions and running out of pedal. As Bront correctly points out, raising collective makes things worse, and one can clearly see when he dumps it how the yaw stops. What was a little surprising is he was pilot only, so it's a little strange, but the Jetties have been known to not have the best tail rotor system.

In terms of Jim's certification concerns, it's like flying a f/w close to the stall and then putting her into a steep bank to make the turn onto finals, it's not going to end pretty, but it's a know factor.
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by cage » Mon May 20, 2019 10:39 am

E816 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:27 am
My view is the pilot just expected too much from the machine.
The oke was 1-up, at sea-level, in modest temperatures.
It was a horrid approach, OGE, over water, flirting with transition, downwind and trying to throw off speed with a nose-high attitude.
He really had to put the effort in to trash that aircraft, even for an L3.

Blaming the aircraft is just silly, it's like saying a fixed-wing is rubbish and dangerous when you see one bouncing down the runway and tossing part of the gear.
Blame the man, not the machine.
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Re: B206 down in the Hudson River

Unread post by E816 » Mon May 20, 2019 10:48 am

cage wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:39 am
E816 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:27 am
My view is the pilot just expected too much from the machine.
The oke was 1-up, at sea-level, in modest temperatures.
It was a horrid approach, OGE, over water, flirting with transition, downwind and trying to throw off speed with a nose-high attitude.
He really had to put the effort in to trash that aircraft, even for an L3.

Blaming the aircraft is just silly, it's like saying a fixed-wing is rubbish and dangerous when you see one bouncing down the runway and tossing part of the gear.
Blame the man, not the machine.
:lol: In that case we agree ... machine can only save one's bad flying for so long, it has it's limits.
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