Self defense poll

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Self defense weapons

Poll ended at Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:42 pm

Do you own a self defense firearm
82
31%
Dont own a self defense firearm
54
20%
Do you always carry
22
8%
Do you occasionally carry
46
17%
Do you never carry
24
9%
Do you carry something other than firearm ( tazer/ pepper spray)
40
15%
 
Total votes: 268
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Fransw » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:06 am

Gun related deaths by country. Suicide and homicide. More guns = more deaths.
529px-2010_homicide_suicide_rates_high-income_countries.png
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:37 am

the bigger the population the bigger the chance of any suicide or homicide by any means. :idea:

In the UK after banning civilian guns for the most part - people simply used other tools to commit homicide...and now knives are their "problem" And the UK police are now more heavily armed than when civilians had legal guns. Why? Maybe there is still too much lead in their plumbing? :wink:

You have to treat the underlying cause of homicide and suicide in society to SOLVE the real problem.
Last edited by snoopy on Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Whirly » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:43 am

snoopy wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:37 am
the bigger the population the bigger the chance of any suicide or homicide by any means. :idea:

In the UK after banning civilian guns for the most part - people simply used other tools to commit homicide...and now knives are their "problem" And the UK police are now more heavily armed than when civilians had legal guns. :wink:

You have to treat the underlying cause of homicide and suicide in society to SOLVE the real problem.
snoopy,

The graph shows deaths per 100 000, so regardless of the size of the population, the USA has more than anywhere else.

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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:44 am

Whirly - who said I was referring to anyone's graph? :idea:

Yes - the USA has a problem. The tool doesnt - the humans do. And yes - they can fix a lot by improving their regulations....as was the case with NZ.

Nobody in SA will be able to buy a legal gun through the mail in SA. Not in your wildest dream...by comparison.

Anyway it appears that most respondents to the AVCOM poll, own a self defense firearm. Which doesnt imply most people on AVCOM own firearms, just that most who partook in the poll do. I strongly doubt that any of their guns have committed a mass shooting in SA, or that their guns have the intent of doing that. :idea:

Oh, and what applies in SA, doesn't automatically apply to the USA, and vice versa.

You have to treat the underlying cause of homicide and suicide in society to SOLVE the real problem.

Apply your mind. Most piston aircraft own propellers, are you going to ban propellers from aircraft to prevent CFIT? Or are you going to ban pilots from flying aircraft? Or are you going to ban all aircraft instead of addressing the HUMAN FACTOR? Because CFIT happens?

Its the HUMAN FACTOR that needs to be addressed, not the tool. Why is it that humans always tend to blame tools - for THEIR own errors, shortcoming and violent intent?

On 11 Sept 2001, thousands of people in the USA died (they were murdered) because of the action of a hand full of people, some of whom had pilot training and had access to aircraft. Airline aircraft were used as tools of terror. Why were all airline aircraft not banned after that?

Stop blaming the tool - and make people accountable.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Jack Welles » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:28 am

snoopy wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:44 am
Stop blaming the tool - and make people accountable.
Gun fan: "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."
Savant: "Then why have guns?"

:lol:
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:40 am

Jack Welles wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:28 am
snoopy wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:44 am
Stop blaming the tool - and make people accountable.
Gun fan: "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."
Savant: "Then why have guns?"

:lol:
in the gun-people equation, it's difficult to remove people from the calculation.
By process of elimination it only leaves one variable.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:53 am

in the gun-people equation, it's difficult to remove people from the calculation.
By process of elimination it only leaves one variable.
in the UKs new knife-people equation (post guns), it's difficult to remove people from the calculation.
By process of elimination it only leaves one variable. :lol: :twisted:

You dont have to remove humans or the tools - you have to address the REAL problem. As inconvenient as it is. :idea:

When societies become indifferent to violence - the society generally becomes MORE violent. As violence itself is perceived in society as being normal. Making society defenseless- wont remove human predators...violence is also not always physical. And this is apparent when you research the differences between expressed violence of different genders.

About human aggression.
Social psychologists define aggression as behavior that is intended to harm another individual who does not wish to be harmed (Baron & Richardson, 1994). Because it involves the perception of intent, what looks like aggression from one point of view may not look that way from another, and the same harmful behavior may or may not be considered aggressive depending on its intent. Intentional harm is, however, perceived as worse than unintentional harm, even when the harms are identical (Ames & Fiske, 2013).
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:08 pm

snoopy wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:53 am
When societies become indifferent to violence - the society generally becomes MORE violent. As violence itself is perceived in society as being normal. Making society defenseless- wont remove human predators...violence is also not always physical. And this is apparent when you research the differences between expressed violence of different genders.
Some are just bad apples and you will never engineer that out of society.
There always have been, and always will be criminals and nutters.
You will never stop that, all you can do is limit the ability to do harm.
If you believe in fairy tales, you will know that Cane killed Abel with a rock.
Had he had an AR15 he would have been able to dispatch a few more, from a greater distance.
It is human nature to always want a bigger stick than the other guy, so if you keep giving them bigger ones then the end result shouldn't be a surprise.

So your choices are either smite people off the face of the earth (This is a somewhat appealing option) or you have to protect them from themselves by regulation and enforcement.
Man has always been his own predator and there is no weapon to protect against stupidity and greed.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:16 pm

Now lets expand violence as a subject of aggression ...

Terrorism (whether it be state terrorism or not) is a type of instrumental aggression—a means to an end (its both intentional and planned aggression). Which in turn leads to a response from those whom terrorists targets. The terrorists acts can be either physical or non physical.

The problem is not the tool.

Violence is aggression that creates extreme physical harm. Aggression refers to human behavior...the REAL problem is behavioral

You can ban tools till the cows come home - its not going to fix the problem.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by cage » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:28 pm

snoopy wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:16 pm
Now lets expand violence as a subject of aggression ...
I think you're trying to over-intellectualise/philosophise the topic to get some wiggle room on the "people kill people" mantra.
Not falling for that one.
Aggression exists everywhere, just more people end up dead when you put a gun in someones hand than not. This has been shown to be the case time and again.

In all walks of life, when people die, they look at why, learn from it, change, regulate, ban, hold accountable etc
It's true for cars, aeroplanes, doctor's, recreational activities, everywhere - because people rightly think that needless death is a bad thing and should be improved in the future.
There is only one area that does not, and it has nothing to do with safety or personal rights, it is money and greed. Nothing more.

Anyhoo, this is like having a religious debate with a Jehova's witness and it's now beer o'clock on a Friday.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:34 pm

just more people end up dead when you put a gun in someones hand than not. This has been shown to be the case time and again.
When you treat the tool as the problem, all you do is remove one object to be replaced by another, and eventually you will still get human predators that murder - and you will still sit with homicide stats...just like the UK.

You'll just go back into the dark ages where people club each other to death or drown them...etc...

Blaming the tool for the action - will never solve the problem, shifting legal guns from civilians to the state only - wont either. Because if your logic is that guns are bad, and the REAL problem....then nobody in the world should have the object. (IMHO those who think that will solve the problem of homicide or suicide live in la-la-land).

Homicide has to do with the nature of people...its about behavioural patterns and intent. Some people will defend, yet never murder, others will murder because they are well, by nature violent and manipulative fruitcakes and use violence as a means to an end.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Brand » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:43 pm

Interesting - maybe we should add another option to the poll.

Who has actually used a gun to kill somebody with?

I know at least one of the contributors to this thread has. I have too - more than once and legally so.

Having to make and implement a split-second life or death decision (under extremelly stressfull/fearful circumstances from which there is no come-back) can change your life forever. And I am not talking about the law and our "rights". I am all for defending my life, or those near and dear to me - and I might have to again. But I pray/hope/believe it will not be required.

I also do not have a problem with gun ownership - but like causing a death by reckless driving, it can change your "religion" in a jiffy - if you catch my drift....

I believe that is why a large number of people are leaving this country as well - once you have looked down the barrel (from either end) it changes your perspective on life in a huge way.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by snoopy » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:17 pm

Interesting perspective of a policing expert at Africa Centre for Security and Intelligence Praxis
702 Radio 12 September 2019
Emasculation' of men contributes to SA's high murder rate
Policing expert Eldred Klerk says the situation is complex, and that one of the factors that cannot be ignored is that of the 'emasculated male'.
Six of the country's most murderous precints are in Cape Town.
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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by SNIPER » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:05 pm

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Re: Self defense poll

Unread post by Davidc » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:47 pm

Fransw wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:06 am
Gun related deaths by country. Suicide and homicide. More guns = more deaths.
529px-2010_homicide_suicide_rates_high-income_countries.png
Yet when it comes to suicide as a whole and not cherry picked stats the picture changes dramatically. And Japan that is a gun free country has a higher suicide rate than the USA.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countr ... y-country/

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