Ukraine / Russia Situation

[Burner]

Does logic not play any part in how you fact check stuff you read on the internet? Firstly if there were western military, especially officers captured, it would be plastered all over the Russian media sites, like RT etc. Secondly what on earth would a Russian Admiral be doing in Ukraine or even close to Ukraine? Did his fleet take a wrong turn somewhere, or was he there on holiday?

It's actually scary how people read stuff without fact checking or applying even basic logic. There is plenty of misinformation happening at the moment. A lot of it intentional and a lot of it just being posted by people/media for clicks.

@Madmacs

I wish you were a troll. It would explain a LOT more.

Really, just because I don't have your verkrampt Rooi Gevaar mentality. I think the problem is our philosophical differences, we don't think alike, so you denigrate me, oh well I've had worse.

You are aware that Russia hasn't been communist in over 30 years? This conflict in Ukraine has got nothing to do with stopping the spread of communism. The only one continuing to justify their argument by referring to Rooi Gevaar seems to be yourself. It's almost like some sort of trump card you keep playing.

Most of the people arguing against Putins actions here seem to be saying that it's a conflict that Russia has gotten involved in rashly, impulsively and will do nothing but cause massive damage to all parties involved. The huge losses on both sides, under estimation of the Ukrainians defenses, and the fact that this is fast becoming a very unpopular war domestically in Russia, show that this invasion wasn't well thought out.

[Airwayfreak]

You are aware that Russia hasn't been communist in over 30 years?

I think many are not aware that Russia is no longer a communist but highly capitalist society. But the old anti-communist sentiments are retained by many. There must be a term similar to Godwin's Law for this. My father in law died hating communism even though he had never met a communist in his life. When I have referred to the Rooi Gevaar, this is what I have been talking about. We, as westerners, tend to be highly critical of anything Russian, Soviet, Muslin etc. This is because western propaganda has been so successful. It has infiltrated our everyday lives in movies, in MSM commentary and by politicians and military officers. We tend to denigrate anything that is Russian, Chinese, Taliban etc yet support an equally vociferous and aggressive western culture. The Brits have recently unclassified their Black Propaganda programme which ran from the 1950's, was officially shut down in the 1970's but still ran covertly into the 1980's. The objective was to demonise anything Russian, Muslim etc. Makes for interesting reading and explains why the current generation harbour an anti-eastern sentiment.

[Theuns v V]

The same old "rooi gevaar" issue has been regurgitated over and over again to try and paint the west minded people as having a hatred to anything russian. What a load of BS
I also grew up in the 70's and we were told the same rooi gevaar propoganda but I will bet you that 99% of the same aged people have learned this to be a crock and dont buy into this narative so that argument is out the window.

Dont for a second think that the old guard in russia (like putin) is terrified of what they see as the "west" coming into russia and changing the old comunist USSR block where the state had absolute controll over all the people and resorces. You can only TOTALLY controll people who dont have access to the "other side's view"

This is the reason he wants these former USSR states back , no other reason and the same old guard are spewing their same old "western capitaist pig" propoganda just as much.

Why would the state controll all the media in russia and ban independent thinkers??? Just saying its a war can land you in jail. They do not want people to make up their own minds.
And now the anti west okes will say "yes but the MSM are brainwashing us over here" that may be your view BUT atleast we have access to other stations and views aswell so we can make up our own minds.

[apollo11]

You are aware that Russia hasn't been communist in over 30 years?

I think many are not aware that Russia is no longer a communist but highly capitalist society. But the old anti-communist sentiments are retained by many. There must be a term similar to Godwin's Law for this. My father in law died hating communism even though he had never met a communist in his life. When I have referred to the Rooi Gevaar, this is what I have been talking about. We, as westerners, tend to be highly critical of anything Russian, Soviet, Muslin etc. This is because western propaganda has been so successful. It has infiltrated our everyday lives in movies, in MSM commentary and by politicians and military officers. We tend to denigrate anything that is Russian, Chinese, Taliban etc yet support an equally vociferous and aggressive western culture. The Brits have recently unclassified their Black Propaganda programme which ran from the 1950's, was officially shut down in the 1970's but still ran covertly into the 1980's. The objective was to demonise anything Russian, Muslim etc. Makes for interesting reading and explains why the current generation harbour an anti-eastern sentiment.

This whole propaganda thing is 'interesting'. Unless you are a psychopath, most people will not willingly go out an kill other people. So in times of war, governments spend a huge amount of effort demonizing the 'enemy'. They need to make the people (particularly young boys and men) hate the 'enemy' enough that they will be willing to go out and kill them. And the rest of the people need to be willing to suffer the inevitable economic consequences of the war.

So a large part of any war is propaganda. And if done effectively, and entire generation of people are thoroughly indoctrinated to hate the 'enemy'.

And Russia is no different. Since 2014 they have been running an intensive propaganda campaign to demonize the Ukrainians. And it has been equally effective, as you, yourself, have shown by repeating some of their propaganda here. So, when you talk about the 'Rooi Gevaar', it is probably also worth considering that 'Blou en Geel Gevaar' propaganda also exists and evaluating information you receive in that light too.

[Trevorn]

What is interesting is the people punting the rooi gavaar aspect are not actually thinking about what they saying and how it fits into reality.

Rooi gevaar is dead. It died a long time ago. The communist party in South Africa is not feared by the so called old school. It is in fact seen as a voice of reason amongst the corruption and factional battels within the ANC. Remember Blade Nzimandes waring about "lets not play with war" regarding Zuma in jail.

AN interesting point was raise that Putin is probably propagating fear against the west in Russia. Is it true? I don't Know but it certainly is plausible.

From what I can see Putin's biggest issue with the west is he sees them as not respecting Russia and not regarding them as a super power.

Well to be blunt, Russia has done nothing to earn the status of a world power. Yes, they are good in cultural things such as ballet and some sport, but what about the Russian ethics. Remember the issue with the Sputnik vaccine, where the doses that arrived in SA were nothing like the samples submitted for evaluation?

What about the corruption in Russia where even Mikhail Gorbachev is critical of the current government for putting Alexi Navalny under house arrest for talking up against Putin and corruption.

But until now Russia was just a blip on the world radar. By going into the Ukraine all he has done is unite the world against Russia and you now have Finland and Sweden asking to join NATO, something they never did until now and would not have done if Russia did not invade.

Now Russia is in a situation it will not recover from with its current government. If they don't change they will slowly decay and head towards a total collapse of the economy. If it goes that far who has Russia to blame if not themselves?

So stop clutching at the rooi gevaar straws and look what is really going on and how will probably pan out.

[Theuns v V]

Just like in poker, russia was seen as a very strong military and posed a great danger to the nato/west alliance.
However just like in poker a "bluff" is only as good as long as someone is not calling said bluff and in this case russia was called and found to be lacking.

T

[rainier]

I know some of the posters (you know who) have been bringing up the anti-communist thing several times. It is true that many South African's still think that way even though Russia has not been a communist country for decades. It's different in much of Europe though were Russia was openly and warmly welcomed to the European family following the demise of the USSR. That only really started faltering after Russia started their "military operations" against other countries. It was all but destroyed with the 2014 annexation of Crimea. You can certainly use the term "anti-Russian" now, but not "anti-communist".

The second comment I would like to make is that of propaganda. It was one of the many subjects I studied in political sciences classes way back. So what is transpiring here is seriously interesting to me. I understand enough Russian to get the gist of what is said so am interested in watching "how its done". I would like to say that Russian propaganda is very good. Really good. It is still using the same tactics as pioneered by Goebels and Stalin so effectively - just using modern media.

For propaganda (i.e. effectively lies mixed with something plausible) to work - you need to get about 75% of the population or target group of a population to buy into it. That is generally the threshold - below this and it falls apart. You don't need to convince everybody. You can amplify propaganda effectively by coercive laws and restrictions - as we are seeing in Russia.
For propaganda to work - you need to control the media to the point where every remaining bit of free or opposing media becomes niche. If is it niche, it can't get the message across - even if true as it will be generally disbelieved. Goebbels, Stalin and Putin had/have a minimum of 90% control of the media. It's the prerequisite of running a successful propaganda campaign.

It is thus very simple to determine when you should be suspicious of a media report possibly tainted by propaganda content. Is the media controlled by the government or an equivalent organization with special interests: Yes or no. That simple. State controlled media that reports in a balanced way when it comes to matters of state - that does not exist and never has.

Russia's control of their own media is a good example of Government control. It's not the only one of its kind - generally you will find the more autocratic a government gets - the more it controls media and the more propaganda you will find supporting the government.

America's right wing is a very good, recent example of media control by a special interest group. The same thing applies: you need to convince around 75% of your target group that whatever message you are sending is gospel. The methods employed are the same.

At the very bottom of the propaganda totem-pole, you have everyday product advertising. Yes - that's propaganda 101. In countries where you are allowed to run a competitors products down - it gets outright nasty - it's exactly the same as the big-boy propaganda, just on a small scale.

[snoopy]

@rainier...djirre ou...you know all too well Communist ideologies have not totally come to an end in the new, capitalist Russia.

Despite what it is today "Technically"

[rainier]

@rainier...djirre ou...you know all too well Communist ideologies have not totally come to an end in the new, capitalist Russia.

Despite what it is today "Technically"

No of course not - but it is not a communist state anymore. This has nothing to do with part of the population yearning for a return to the old ways. In particular the older generation.

The definition of a communist state is a state where government implements the structures and collectivism suggested by Lenin and Marx - they were not the first of course to think this way but the first to make it gain traction.

Russia is not even close to that now - in fact you can make a very good argument that a country like Germany today is much closer to the ideals of Lenin and Marx than Russia ever was.
I will go so far as to say that Russia never really was a communist country. It did misuse the teachings of Lenin and Marx to implement a power structure that benefited a select elite very well while roughly implementing collectivist principles - but so poorly and corrupt - I don't anybody in their right mind would have called Russia a "workers paradise" in any shape or form - that was only projected in propaganda - don't know if you ever watched the many movie reels originating out of Russia showing the happy farm and factory workers and the "huge" successes - they only existed in movies. Russia had to import grains and don't forget - just to stay on topic - Ukraine lost 5 million !!! of its people starving to death due to the forced collectivization of its thriving agriculture. Ukraine has not forgotten that.

[snoopy]

@rainier...nou ja toe ne? Uit watter deel van Duitsland kom jy nou weer? Ou Wes of Oos?

Die Nazi party is ook lankal is sy mo*r na WW2, maar Vladimir jag nog Nazi's in Ukraine in 2022, nes asof daar nie meer "Kommies" is in Rusland nie.

As die kommuniste in Rusland nou almal weg is, laat weet tog net die ANC en SAKP ook daarvan...

En Rusland en RSA, en China se staatsdienste sal nie so hand om die blaas wees met mekaar vandag, as hulle nie ideologie deel nie.

Ek se maar niks verder nie

[rainier]

@rainier...nou ja toe ne? Uit watter deel van Duitsland kom jy nou weer? Ou Wes of Oos?

Bloemfontein. But grew up in West Germany - close to Dutch border. Very flat.

Die Nazi party is ook lankal is sy mo*r na WW2, maar Vladimir jag nog Nazi's in Ukraine in 2022, nes asof daar nie meer "Kommies" is in Rusland nie.

Nazis vs Commies was a thing then. Now its Russia vs Nazis. Russians have bad memories from those times. It makes sense to call your enemies Nazis. Does not really matter if they are or not. It helps the narrative.

As die kommuniste in Rusland nou almal weg is, laat weet tog net die ANC en SAKP ook daarvan...

I really doubt many of them actually know what communism is. Some of them saw the Russian version of it. But that was not really communism.

En Rusland en RSA, en China se staatsdienste sal nie so hand om die blaas wees met mekaar vandag, as hulle nie ideologie deel nie.

Not that simple. China has a form of capitalistic system that is not very different to that of Russia right now (both are autocratic systems). Both are a far cry from a communist system. Just because your flag is red does not mean you adhere to the communist philosophy.

The country that came the closest to implementing a communist system was perhaps Cuba - but even that lacked a lot of the things needed for that to be in place.

What all of these countries have in common (Russia until the early 1990's) was a collectivist system at low level - the basic structures upon which a communist system builds - and that makes sense - it's a perfect shoe in for the higher levels to govern indefinitely. Once you look above a certain government level - you quickly get to the real power structure - and there is no sign of any commie tendencies here.

Putin's Russia is different from China - Russia has adopted a form of capitalism to replace the collectivization of old - and has done that quite successfully after initial problems. However, have a closer look - the current high level of government has many of the features of the old politbuero but unlike the politbuero the leader has absolute power.

Ek se maar niks verder nie

You are suggesting the ANC is communist - while they certainly look like they have some of the old soviet structures holding up their organization and like to call each other "comrade", no I am afraid they are not. If they were - things would actually be better. I fear all we have here is an organization that was formed in the mold of the soviet system - but without even the slightest idea what communism actually is. Not that it matters - once the structure was in place it has proved impossible to change. That's because it is very protective of those in power. Just like it was in the Soviet union and now in China. It cannot be changed from the inside - it needs to be changed by overwhelming outside force in whatever form. Just like it changed the USSR. It was not changed from within.

[Airwayfreak]

@rainier...djirre ou...you know all too well Communist ideologies have not totally come to an end in the new, capitalist Russia.

Despite what it is today "Technically"

And there we go, Rainier, Heisan et al. Tell me some still don't suffer from the remnants of Rooi Gevaar Syndrome.
I am not saying everybody does, but our friend Snoopy probably checks under his bed every night to find an Ivan

We diminish anything that is Russian and many still believe that communists sneak about in every nook and cranny. Why would the Brits and Americans spend millions on disinformation and propaganda and continue doing so if they are not gaining any benefit? Of course we all know that the Russians are equally able to do the same and we very quickly show how the Russian people have fallen for this propaganda but yet we arrogantly continue to believe that we have not been biased by western propaganda.

Since this is an aviation forum, let's look at Russian aircraft. A very well known, senior SAAF officer always referred to Russian fighters as ejector seat test platforms. He could never come to terms that Russian generation 4 fighters were superior in many aspects to American fighters. Case in point

[Airwayfreak]

You are suggesting the ANC is communist - while they certainly look like they have some of the old soviet structures holding up their organization and like to call each other "comrade", no I am afraid they are not.

Totally agree. The ANC is not Communist, never was. It was merely supported by the communists. The ANC are nationalists.

SWAPO/PLAN, FAPLA etc were also never communist. But we still believe that we were fighting communism.

[AnAV8R]

@rainier...djirre ou...you know all too well Communist ideologies have not totally come to an end in the new, capitalist Russia.

Despite what it is today "Technically"

And there we go, Rainier, Heisan et al. Tell me some still don't suffer from the remnants of Rooi Gevaar Syndrome.
I am not saying everybody does, but our friend Snoopy probably checks under his bed every night to find an Ivan

We diminish anything that is Russian and many still believe that communists sneak about in every nook and cranny. Why would the Brits and Americans spend millions on disinformation and propaganda and continue doing so if they are not gaining any benefit? Of course we all know that the Russians are equally able to do the same and we very quickly show how the Russian people have fallen for this propaganda but yet we arrogantly continue to believe that we have not been biased by western propaganda.

Since this is an aviation forum, let's look at Russian aircraft. A very well known, senior SAAF officer always referred to Russian fighters as ejector seat test platforms. He could never come to terms that Russian generation 4 fighters were superior in many aspects to American fighters. Case in point

Russian fighter jets superior?? Hmmmm...
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia- ... -uk-2022-5

[Trevorn]

@rainier...djirre ou...you know all too well Communist ideologies have not totally come to an end in the new, capitalist Russia.

Despite what it is today "Technically"

And there we go, Rainier, Heisan et al. Tell me some still don't suffer from the remnants of Rooi Gevaar Syndrome.
I am not saying everybody does, but our friend Snoopy probably checks under his bed every night to find an Ivan

We diminish anything that is Russian and many still believe that communists sneak about in every nook and cranny. Why would the Brits and Americans spend millions on disinformation and propaganda and continue doing so if they are not gaining any benefit? Of course we all know that the Russians are equally able to do the same and we very quickly show how the Russian people have fallen for this propaganda but yet we arrogantly continue to believe that we have not been biased by western propaganda.

Since this is an aviation forum, let's look at Russian aircraft. A very well known, senior SAAF officer always referred to Russian fighters as ejector seat test platforms. He could never come to terms that Russian generation 4 fighters were superior in many aspects to American fighters. Case in point

Russian fighter jets superior?? Hmmmm...
https://www.businessinsider.com/russia- ... -uk-2022-5

I once read an article referring to the Russian Air display team as the synchronised ejection team after the spate of MIG 29 accidents in the 90's

Knowing some people who work with the Russian aero industry, they say Russian equipment is very inferior, relying on quantity over quality.

I guess you could adapt Kurt Tanks analogy. The western aircraft are like race horses whereas the Russian aircraft are like work horses.....