Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

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Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by Piperdriver »

Quite an interesting development….

https://www.news24.com/fin24/companies/ ... g-20240307
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by Airplaneguy9 »

Premium-locked. Anyone have access to the full article?
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by heisan »

Airplaneguy9 wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 8:59 am Premium-locked. Anyone have access to the full article?
Just a reminder that publishing copyrighted material is illegal.
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by Kootenayflyer »

can't access without news 24 subscription....


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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by Iceberg »

Here is a link not hidden behind a paywall:
https://www.enca.com/videos/flysafair-f ... regulators
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by Volo »

So what have we got here - Government trying another way to clear the way for SAA using other govt agencies ? - hobble the opposition perhaps?
These are not accusations - just unfounded speculation .
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by Piperdriver »

Rumor has it that the complaints are Airlink and Global, If correct then I doubt these two private companies would waste their time on such things, they just feel there is merit in perusing this.
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by snoopy »

Pray tell, who owns SAA's partner airline SunExpress?
https://newsroom.aviator.aero/sunexpres ... rtnership/

SunExpress, is a Turkish-German airline based in Antalya...it flies and competes domestically in partnership with SAA regurgitated. :idea: ..replacing what Mango did for SAA to an extent.

Does it have SA majority ownership as a Turkish based airline?
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by Burner »

snoopy wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:25 am Pray tell, who owns SAA's partner airline SunExpress?
https://newsroom.aviator.aero/sunexpres ... rtnership/

SunExpress, is a Turkish-German airline based in Antalya...it flies and competes domestically in partnership with SAA regurgitated. :idea: ..replacing what Mango did for SAA to an extent.

Does it have SA majority ownership as a Turkish based airline?
Very different set up. Sun Express isn't operating as an airline in South Africa, it's merely operating on SAA's behalf piggy backing off of SAA's ASL, and other approvals to operate scheduled commercial flights in SA. As far as I know there is a 6 month limit to using foreign registered/operated aircraft on scheduled commercial ops within SA. This is similar to what Lift was/is doing using Global Airways Lithuania's foreign registered aircraft on a short term wet/damp lease agreement.

Mango and SAA's partnership was completely different, with both companies operating on separate AOCs, ASLs and approvals, under their own callsigns, separate tickets etc etc.
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by snoopy »

Fair enough, does SAA benefit financially from SunExpress?

So hypothetically if SAFAIR global piggybacks off SAFAIR SA (local registered company with say 2 aircraft - hypothetically ) all will be fine, provided the SA company has SA owners mainly?

Many foreign owned companies compete in the local market with local companies and have majority share of the market they operate in, in SA so I don't get the issue.
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by trees »

snoopy wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 2:30 pm Fair enough, does SAA benefit financially from SunExpress?
SAA are forced to do this because they don't have a choice - no one will dry lease them aircraft. They also wet lease capacity from local ACA.
So hypothetically if SAFAIR global piggybacks off SAFAIR SA (local registered company with say 2 aircraft - hypothetically ) all will be fine, provided the SA company has SA owners mainly?

Many foreign owned companies compete in the local market with local companies and have majority share of the market they operate in, in SA so I don't get the issue.
If by piggyback you mean operate a foreign registered aircraft locally, yes, but SA operators are only allowed to wet-lease in a foreign registered aircraft for six months at a time.
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by snoopy »

So you can renew the wet lease between the two legal entities (hypothetically) every 6 months right? Who determines the allowed to period? SAA's owner who is a direct competitor in this market? Because technically wet leases can extend to up to 24 months elsewhere.

Interesting that in the airline industry local airline companies are protected this way - while in other businesses sectors this is not applicable in SA. You have to put up with the international company competition locally. No use of moaning about that competition, instead; it takes balls. :wink:
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by Burner »

snoopy wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:44 am So you can renew the wet lease between the two legal entities (hypothetically) every 6 months right? Who determines the allowed to period? SAA's owner who is a direct competitor in this market? Because technically wet leases can extend to up to 24 months elsewhere.

Interesting that in the airline industry local airline companies are protected this way - while in other businesses sectors this is not applicable in SA. You have to put up with the international company competition locally. No use of moaning about that competition, instead; it takes balls. :wink:
6 months is fairly standard globally. If I recall EASA mention you are allowed 6 months in total within a 12 month period. There might be allowance, somewhere I read, where under exceptional circumstances it can be extended ONCE for an additional 6 month period.
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by snoopy »

If the issue of SAFAIRs competitors is the company ownership - there are many ways to get around that. Like the questionable shenanigans SA companies get up to with BBBEE in SA just to be compliant. But it makes them compliant all the same. Its a ruse/farce of course, but it checks all the required boxes.

Lease options between company entities, there are many - Wet Lease, Damp Lease, Dry Lease, Operating Lease and Finance Lease. And they don't all look the same on a local company's books.

But it appears the issue SAFAIRs private competitors have with it - is its ownership. Still amazed the commercial airline industry is really so protected in SA. Emirates for example would then never have been able to start flying local routes, as domestic competition in SA in any event if this is such an issue.

Dig into the ownership of SAFAIRs competitors locally - you may just end up in the UK... If you know who owns who.. :idea:
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Re: Safair 'too big to ground'? Competitors cry foul over 'breach' of ownership laws, pricing

Unread post by trees »

snoopy wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 11:44 am So you can renew the wet lease between the two legal entities (hypothetically) every 6 months right? Who determines the allowed to period? SAA's owner who is a direct competitor in this market? Because technically wet leases can extend to up to 24 months elsewhere.

Interesting that in the airline industry local airline companies are protected this way - while in other businesses sectors this is not applicable in SA. You have to put up with the international company competition locally. No use of moaning about that competition, instead; it takes balls. :wink:
Six months per single 12 month calendar period is the rule if I remember correctly, so the Turkish -800's should expire in April and May but that remains to be seen. Exemptions can be granted depending on circumstances.

The legislation also states that the airline leasing in, shall not be predominantly dependant on foreign registered planes.
snoopy wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:00 pm If the issue of SAFAIRs competitors is the company ownership - there are many ways to get around that. Like the questionable shenanigans SA companies get up to with BBBEE in SA just to be compliant. But it makes them compliant all the same. Its a ruse/farce of course, but it checks all the required boxes.

Lease options between company entities, there are many - Wet Lease, Damp Lease, Dry Lease, Operating Lease and Finance Lease. And they don't all look the same on the local company's books.

But it appears the issue SAFAIRs private competitors have with it - is its ownership. Still amazed the commercial airline industry is really so protected in SA. Emirates for example would then never have been able to start flying local routes, as domestic competition in SA in any event if this is such an issue.
These rules are in place to prevent carriers like Emirates (and ASL?) from taking over our domestic market.

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