Your Opinion: The T&Cs of AvCom

[jimdavis]

Roger, I don't see any need to have an 'elite' invitation-only group.

I have two suggestions - the first is that a quiet backroom word from the boss - you - is very different from a public lashing by a no-name brand who lives in a cave.

And the next is that it's time we stopped talking to blank walls. People who won't say which hemisphere they live in are taking privacy beyond sensible. If I talk to a new person in the pub I would know - in the first five minutes - their name, where they are based, what their interests are and roughly where they are in aviation. If people are not open about who they are then they can't expect me to take them seriously, or to respect them

I think every one of us 'trouble makers' is completely open about who we are.

There will be the rare occasion where someone has a good reason for keeping their name out of the lime-light but I believe they should only be allowed into the pub if this reason has been vetted and accepted by the mods. And then they should have to use a sensible nickname - like "Joey" or "Bill" - not "Hotshot 273". Something one would use in the pub. I want to talk to someone who calls himself Freddy, is a 25 year old flight-attendant based in Hong Kong, who loves photography and rides a Honda, or a horse, and is saving money to complete his Com.

So answering basic questions should be a condition of membership. I don't know of any other club in the world where you are accepted as a member without giving information about yourself.

So my two suggestions are:

1. Discreet modding conveyed by yourself only.
2. Membership to "Chatter" and "Academy" only be open to those who share their names and basic information.

These two changes should restore our pub to the friendly place it used to be.

Salaams

jim

PS I'm happy to help you work out the details of information minimums. For instance under INTERESTS the single word "aviation" is not enough. And no, I would not want a Mod's job at any price.

[Roger]

thanks, at least you understand that a mods job is rather thankless.

As far as a single person doing a contact before or even directly after moderation is not do able. It involves too much communication for a single person to execute.

As far as public lashings, there are many debates on whether the moderation should be public or private and we tend to practice both. Much of what we do is invisible to most of our members. We will take to public when the posters have not noticed the moderation on a topic and continue with offending posts.

The anonymity issue is not an easy one to overcome. We have no way of vetting a person's identity and ensuring that Tom Block from Pietermaritzburg, is well, Tom Block from PMB and not a Vic Rodriguez from Mthahta. Even our government with FICA and RICA processes in place, can guarantee a person holding a mobile number or bank account are who they purport to be.

[jimdavis]

Volo has just asked me if I'm leaving. Here's my reply:

Greetings Dave, and thanks so much for your kind words.

Nope, I'm not going off in a sulk, but I sense that Roger is not going to make the big bold changes that are necessary to keep us happy. He's hoping to do it with persuasive talk and minor tweaks.

I'm not going to spend much time in a pub where the guy next to me is so anal that he won't say which hemisphere he lives in, and we are overseen by a bunch of no-name policemen with no discretion and no sense of humour.

I may pop in occasionally to see what's going on, but it doesn't feel like my pub any more.

Salaams

jim

[HJK 414]

................
Nope, I'm not going off in a sulk, but I sense that Roger is not going to make the big bold changes that are necessary to keep us happy. He's hoping to do it with persuasive talk and minor tweaks.

I'm not going to spend much time in a pub where the guy next to me is so anal that he won't say which hemisphere he lives in, and we are overseen by a bunch of no-name policemen with no discretion and no sense of humour.

I may pop in occasionally to see what's going on, but it doesn't feel like my pub any more.

Salaams

jim

Whoaaaaah Jim,

Let me try to muddy the waters ...... or add some food for thought.....

We are fully on the same page (as we communicate outside Avcom as well), but we need to be careful that this discussion does not derail into a blame game - especially aganst the moderators. They have been doing a thankless job (within the rules and regs set) and whether they do so under their own name or an abbreviation or funny handle - who really cares. I preferred Ugly Duckling over Paul S.

If you are on Avcom for some time - you quickly know who they are - and I have - in all these years - not really seen a bias / direct or indirect slant from the mods. They are human and have an opinion and may "lean" in a certain direction - or even speak out (what is the world coming to) - but all in all - (if you look at the amount of text / threads / posts).....even if some mishaps occurred - it speaks of an outstanding dicipline ......
Do we always agree - of course not .... we are Pilots......

As for members - I use my initials with an aircraft type I owned privately as an abbreviation / everyone knows who I am.
Dave uses Volo (= flight / flying) - I think it is quite cool.
The whole point is that the experienced members often use a "nickname" or "handle" that has something to do with their flying career / experience - I find that interesting / Charles - Rotorkop (no guesses as to what he flies) / Whirly - no guessing prizes there either ..... etc etc .

My frustration (and I believe of many others) is the intrusion of quite a number of "aviation enthusiasts" into "our pub" that turn into all knowing - pedantic - condescending pricks that know it all - and keep disturbing threads with comments that have very little or nothing to do with the topic at hand. It quickly leads to - tit for tat - (I certainy am guilty of reacting) and it then runs off the rails.

Hence my request for a "closed forum" (invitation only ?? - No idea how to manage that / perhaps a peer controlled forum ?? - there will be people with solid ideas - it is just an outcry for change !! ) - but I sincerely wish to go back to a hangar pub with likeminded souls that have spent time in cockpits - that have experience in the sky - with airframes - and who we can share time with. I have no problem with someone that has a different opinion - or mindset - but would appreciate it if he had at least some "flying" or "aviation" background before he starts "educating" me.

If you look at the amount of active "experienced" pilots on Avcom at the moment / against the number of members - we (in my view) have a problem. The amount of WikiPilots and GoogleYeagers has become disproportionate / and it shows in the quality of the threads, and the amount of Moderation required.

Summary: (in my view)
This is not about the Mods - it is about Avcom and the "new style" of public media.
It was brought about due to an unfortunate event involving a very valuable member of Avcom - and cost us UD as a Mod - but would have happened anyway - simply a matter of time. Avcom is bleeding "experience" and one wonders how long the "hangar pub" will last.

If you have a real world aviation pub for Pilots - and you end up with hang-on yuppies and no pilots - the pub will quickly loose it's aviation foundation. This is no different.

JK

[HJK 414]

....................
A pub for pilots as Jan proposed has merit however the members need to be pilots present or past, active or inactive so that they have the foundation for constructive participation. If you want to walk the walk with the likes of Chalkie and Jim amongst the Jans, Wildcats, Nugpots, Swamp Donkey and others you had better know a bit more about engines and airframes, aerodynamics and the weather than what Mr Google or Mrs Wikipedia can deliver.

Paul,

I think the main "problem" is attendance and admission.
I called it a "closed forum" ..... but let me try to illustrate what I am after (whether Roger will bite or not ...... )

Point I am trying to make is the following:
In a real world aviation pub called Wings (in a hangar at the Jim Davis field) we have pilots walking in and having a chin wag about the day - the weather and the aircraft they fly. They share stories of present and past and discuss technical snags and issues at hand
(much like the old TAC...... ).

Now - a guy walks into Wings, is welcomed by all - calls himself Chuck - orders a beer and starts getting involved in a discussion.
He quickly gets involved and after some time explains to a Pilot (that just arrived), sitting there, that he feels the pilot was irresponsible flying in the current conditions and that he had the risk of crashing - and that aviators should have a better sense .......
When asked whether he means that under VFR or IFR (as the pilot arrived under Instruments ..) - he explains that he did not realize there was a ILS capacity at the Jim Davis field. He quickly demonstrates that he is not only opinionated - but also very judgemental and when asked what he flies - he explains that he is an aviation enthusiast - and intends to get his license shortly and then go for a CPL in order to go bush flying as that appeals to his sense of adventure ... When asked whether he understands flying in the bush he unequivically states - "of course - I will be a professional - I know the rules - I have read all kinds of documentation to that effect, ask me anything" .

Now - how long will he last in that pub ?
How long before the collective (a small group of old members ?) quietly ask him to leave - or the landlord ( old Jim ?) advises him of a nice pub down the road - or how long before he finds himself in a position that he is no longer invited / welcome at a table - or at the Bar ??

Back to Avcom - and my "closed forum".
I would like to find a way to discuss matters with peers in a similar environment - and over time in Avcom we have inherited too many Chuck's - and have no way of quietly advising them to fukc-off down the road .....

Untill that "pub" is back - or created - I have nothing to add :
and as Jim stated - will pop my head in once in a while - but the current Pub is not my Pub anymore ........

Cheers
JK

[Fransw]

I still dont know what the big issue is here!? I wish the experienced guys understand how we appreciate their input! But they also need to realize that this is a real world situation with many personalities. And it would help if you adapted to that. Nobody is irreplaceable the world move on. Adapt or die...Maybe we are looking at a higher level of Dunning-Kruger here...

Interesting to note that most of the fatal accidents are caused by experienced pilots..

[HJK 414]

I still dont know what the big issue is here!? I wish the experienced guys understand how we appreciate their input! But they also need to realize that this is a real world situation with many personalities. And it would help if you adapted to that. Nobody is irreplaceable the world move on. Adapt or die...Maybe we are looking at a higher level of Dunning-Kruger here...

Interesting to note that most of the fatal accidents are caused by experienced pilots..

Frans

Dunning Kruger ??? .....:
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities.

I will tell you that after 8500 hrs plus of flying - and working on most airframes Beechcraft invented - I have no problem in participating in an aviation forum. I like to discuss various airframes / flying techniques and p.e. different engine performances / piston / Turbine etc etc ....
Am I overestimating my abilities ? - I don't fly anymore - never crashed - so perhaps it is just a discussion of "what was" and about "experience" ? (which is the summary of all your mistakes)

Your flying experience ?
Your abilities in discussing aviation ?

Or am I missing the point ?

JK

[Fransw]

I still dont know what the big issue is here!? I wish the experienced guys understand how we appreciate their input! But they also need to realize that this is a real world situation with many personalities. And it would help if you adapted to that. Nobody is irreplaceable the world move on. Adapt or die...Maybe we are looking at a higher level of Dunning-Kruger here...

Interesting to note that most of the fatal accidents are caused by experienced pilots..

Frans

Dunning Kruger ??? .....:
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities.

I will tell you that after 8500 hrs plus of flying - and working on most airframes Beechcraft invented - I have no problem in participating in an aviation forum. I like to discuss various airframes / flying techniques and p.e. different engine performances / piston / Turbine etc etc ....
Am I overestimating my abilities ? - I don't fly anymore - never crashed - so perhaps it is just a discussion of "what was" and about "experience" ? (which is the summary of all your mistakes)

Your flying experience ?
Your abilities in discussing aviation ?

Or am I missing the point ?

JK

Yes, Dunnig-Kruger!

[HJK 414]

Frans

Dunning Kruger ??? .....:
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities.

I will tell you that after 8500 hrs plus of flying - and working on most airframes Beechcraft invented - I have no problem in participating in an aviation forum. I like to discuss various airframes / flying techniques and p.e. different engine performances / piston / Turbine etc etc ....
Am I overestimating my abilities ? - I don't fly anymore - never crashed - so perhaps it is just a discussion of "what was" and about "experience" ? (which is the summary of all your mistakes)

Your flying experience ?
Your abilities in discussing aviation ?

Or am I missing the point ?

JK

Yes, Dunnig-Kruger!

Frans,
I am missing the point ..... completely
I am not trying to make this personal - it is simply an example,

You have been on Avcom for years .... (in the pub as it is discussed)
We have shared many topics .....
You have an opinion about many things - (8000 posts +)

So - what is your experience / in this "aviation" pub ?
Hours flown / Twins / Turbine - Bush ? (platform ? / Tower ATC?)
What can we discuss ? - as "peers" ?

As Jim said - who are all these people ??

JK

[Fransw]

Frans

Dunning Kruger ??? .....:
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities.

I will tell you that after 8500 hrs plus of flying - and working on most airframes Beechcraft invented - I have no problem in participating in an aviation forum. I like to discuss various airframes / flying techniques and p.e. different engine performances / piston / Turbine etc etc ....
Am I overestimating my abilities ? - I don't fly anymore - never crashed - so perhaps it is just a discussion of "what was" and about "experience" ? (which is the summary of all your mistakes)

Your flying experience ?
Your abilities in discussing aviation ?

Or am I missing the point ?

JK

Yes, Dunnig-Kruger!

Frans,
I am missing the point ..... completely
I am not trying to make this personal - it is simply an example,

You have been on Avcom for years .... (in the pub as it is discussed)
We have shared many topics .....
You have an opinion about many things - (8000 posts +)

So - what is your experience / in this "aviation" pub ?
Hours flown / Twins / Turbine - Bush ? (platform ? / Tower ATC?)
What can we discuss ? - as "peers" ?

As Jim said - who are all these people ??

JK

We cannot discuss anything as aviation peers! You are far too experienced(and you know it all too well) On second thoughts maybe a good idea to create your own little group. Go for it!

[HJK 414]

We cannot discuss anything as aviation peers! You are far too experienced(and you know it all too well) On second thoughts maybe a good idea to create your own little group. Go for it!

???????
Getting a tad personal are we not ??

So - you enter a aviation pub and then feel the experienced flyers there should fukc off - as you feel you are not able to speak with them ??

You just stated before that you learn so much from the forum.
It is a simple question ..... you have been in this Pub for a long time
Introduce yourself please .....

How much aviation experience do you have ?
What topics do you feel are worthwhile - for that "learning experience"

In a normal aviation pub it would be one of the first questions someone ask you
What do you do - what do you fly ? Are you an engineer ?

JK

[Burner]

What about having some sort of mentorship system? Whereby contributors experienced in their particular sector of the industry identify themselves (with or without their real names, as some company's have strict social media policies), but have a more detailed bio section. I.e. Joe Soap, years in aviation: XXX years, sector of the industry: fixed wing/rotary/gliding/flight training/airline. etc etc. It's a bit like the Facebook group expert system, where new posters can immediately discern between the peanut gallery, and the those posting decent advise?

These people could be some how identified as ''mentors''. Make this something exclusive to the Academy and similar sections of the board. Make it voluntary of course, but how it would be decided who's a mentor and who isn't i'm not sure.

There has to be some form of moderation in the academy I believe. Otherwise all the absolutely invaluable nuggets that are posted there, are completely lost in a sea of one line attempts at humour, from people who have nothing valuable to add but feel the need to chime in just to up their post count, or show their presence.

[Fransw]

We cannot discuss anything as aviation peers! You are far too experienced(and you know it all too well) On second thoughts maybe a good idea to create your own little group. Go for it!

???????
Getting a tad personal are we not ??

So - you enter a aviation pub and then feel the experienced flyers there should fukc off - as you feel you are not able to speak with them ??

You just stated before that you learn so much from the forum.
It is a simple question ..... you have been in this Pub for a long time
Introduce yourself please .....

How much aviation experience do you have ?
What topics do you feel are worthwhile - for that "learning experience"

In a normal aviation pub it would be one of the first questions someone ask you
What do you do - what do you fly ? Are you an engineer ?

JK

Definitely a Dunning-Kruger effect here!

Why don't you call your new group ''The Dirty Dozen''. Why do you hide your name? What is lurking there?

Whats happening here is not a new thing. Every club/group has a Dirt Dozen!

[HJK 414]

Definitely a Dunning-Kruger effect here!

Why don't you call your new group ''The Dirty Dozen''. Why do you hide your name? What is lurking there?

Whats happening here is not a new thing. Every club/group has a Dirt Dozen!

Thx Chuck,

For perfectly illustrating the point I made

I have my answer ....

JK

[Fransw]

Definitely a Dunning-Kruger effect here!

Why don't you call your new group ''The Dirty Dozen''. Why do you hide your name? What is lurking there?

Whats happening here is not a new thing. Every club/group has a Dirt Dozen!

Thx Chuck,

For perfectly illustrating the point I made

I have my answer ....

JK

Good!!