Solar, Inverters, batteries, etc

[snoopy]

One person on powerforum held the same opinion about the radio interference. And mentioned a specific brand of inverter. We have that brand, and it hasn't affected our radio frequencies at all here. Not VHF, UHF or cell phone signals. But all RF devices used here are ICASA approved.

And ironically two devices that monitor the system, both use the radio frequency spectrum and are located within cm's of the MPPTs - yet they all work just fine, they too are ICASA approved. It also had no affect on other technology we use at home either, that is reliant on RF.

There are simple ways around it if it really affects your local radio signals in short range of the device. A steel roof is going to have far more affect on your cellphone signal than a MPPT.

Let ICASA ban steel roofs and concrete, and even your drill that can interfere with radio signals also. Before solar system days other things affected our RF signals, none of that ICASA did anything about for decades - nor could they and they still have not.

Then some people worry that they going to get radiated by their granite kitchen countertops, probably a story spread by someone manufacturing artificial epoxy quarts countertops as competition.

[Skymaster]

The fact is that some inverters and solar panels do cause interference.
This is particularly so on short wave reception and the high frequency bands and may not be noticeable on UHF and VHF.
This interference contravenes the Act.
ICASA may have well approved equipment for the wrong reasons as neither solar panels or inverters emit RF signals or emissions.
However the interference they emit is cause by electronic switching which generates huge amounts of "hash" which makes the reception of signals on the above bands impossible due to the "noise" = even if located some distance away.
The exact same thing happened in the USA where the FCC suddenly had to review the situation due to the huge increase in the use of solar panels and inverters as more and more people went "off grid".
It will be interesting to see how ICASA handles the situation here as they are governed by the ACT which clearly states that it is an offence to cause interference, even if it is unintentional.
It is advisable when installing solar panels and an inverter, that the installer be required to give a written guarantee that the installation will not cause "hash" - that all wiring used is "twisted" and laid through metal conduit which must be grounded and that the inverter has suitable circuitry and filtering to prevent hash emissions. This will ensure that in the event of a complaint being laid and investigated by ICASA , the installer would then be liable and would be requited to effect repairs at no cost to the customer. Like 5G and radio altimeters, new technology often has unintended consequences which need to be resolved.

[Snitch]

Haven't notices any VHF interference lately from solar systems, but we had massive interference when my one neighbors used to turn on their outdoor Chinese brand LED's when they had guests ( luckily they remodeled later and installed a different brand that is not interfering)

At some companies I remember we also had LED lights shown as the source of interference on security VHF or UHF radios and in one instance a popular brand electric fence energiser caused a lot of interference

[snoopy]

What is the tested range of this shortwave hash., to the point that it actually disrupts communication on shortwave, which is generally very noisy anyway, as I understand it's supposedly the MPPTs on Voltronics clones and Sunsynk/Deye (Sunsynk/Deye are essentially the same product) according to the individual posting the complaint on powerforum.

Then there have been RFI issues with Victron's MPPT 150|35 reported elsewhere globally (in one case the individual moved from Chinese to Victron - the RFI was worse on Victron in his case - tested with a RF spectrum scope) , but all these issues could also just be cable related (from PV to inverter) which can be resolved with 1-300 MHz ferrite rings. In another example a user changed from Victron to Voltronics, no issues after that , yet another had his 2 x Victron MPPT 150s right next to his Yaesu FTDX10 radio, no issues... so ja... it clearly is not a issue with all installations - even installations that don't have any additional RFI suppression and are owned by radio hams, regardless of the brand.

It doesn't appear to be a constant issue with any brand that can be regulated, it appears to be isolated cases. A better route would be to publish RFI suppression recommendations for isolated cases where RFI may be a problem. The complaints seems to be coming mainly from radio hams, because nobody uses SW any more in general.

I cannot find any radio interference in any spectrum that will normally be used in residential areas or office buildings (Sunsynk and Tier 1 PV panels) , and no interference on general frequencies from any LED light we use either. We've been using LED for more than a decade. No issues with RFI.

I use the RF spectrum extensively, but all devices using it are ICASA approved.

Energy will trump priority as opposed to hobbies no doubt, I used to be a radio amateur for years, even built my own antennas. Yagi etc. If you have a crappy antenna you can expect a crappy signal with the least bit of RFI. The cause being the antenna.

Will be following this...And I'm going to do some shortwave listening on my multiband to see if I can hear any noise patterns that could be deemed disruptive.

Bad ionospheric conditions and the sun (nature) itself also interferes with the shortwave frequency band.

From the tests I've seen done by radio hams, the radio is put right up against the MPPTs to hear the RFI, not at a distance from the inverter or controller. Other complaints I've read are from ham radio users who also have their inverters, MPPTs and panels in close proximity to their radio sets, installed in camper vans or on yachts (all small spaces).

[Skymaster]

The hash only is emitted from poor inverter design and manufacture as well as poor screening of cables etc.
Which is why some systems are hash-free and others not.
VHF, UHF and frequencies above do not seem to be affected as far as can be ascertained.
So far no studies have been completed to determine just how this "hash" may affect other electronic equipment, but are ongoing.
The ACT is very clear about interference and should a complaint be received ICASA, or an appointed agent, is required to investigate.
Should the complaint be found to be justified a court order can be issued should the interference continue - to either switch off the offending equipment or fix the emission.
This happens at present and people have been prosecuted for operating illegally or creating RF inteference.
There is no doubt that ICASA with the assistance of the CSIR will ensure that imported inverters and ancillary equipment meets appropriate standards which are not difficult to achieve.
Installers will probably be required to issue "compliance certificates" regarding solar equipment they have installed much like electricians.
The International Tellecommunication Union, of which South Africa (and ICASA) is a member is aware of the situation and at some point will also issue clear directives of how to handle this noise pollution.
South Africa complies with all directives from the ITU as do most countries in the world - a vital organisation otherwise radio comms would be in chaos internationally.
(Imagine the aircraft bands being full of CB style operators free to get on the air without any regulation!!)
The solution is undoubtedly the compliance of imported equipment with strict design requirements that eliminate hash.
Anyone planning to install solar panels, inverters and batteries should proceed with caution and demand answers and assurance in writing from the installer.

[snoopy]

The hash only is emitted from poor inverter design and manufacture as well as poor screening of cables etc.
Which is why some systems are hash-free and others not.
VHF, UHF and frequencies above do not seem to be affected as far as can be ascertained.
So far no studies have been completed to determine just how this "hash" may affect other electronic equipment, but are ongoing.
The ACT is very clear about interference and should a complaint be received ICASA, or an appointed agent, is required to investigate.
Should the complaint be found to be justified a court order can be issued should the interference continue - to either switch off the offending equipment or fix the emission.
This happens at present and people have been prosecuted for operating illegally or creating RF inteference.
There is no doubt that ICASA with the assistance of the CSIR will ensure that imported inverters and ancillary equipment meets appropriate standards which are not difficult to achieve.
Installers will probably be required to issue "compliance certificates" regarding solar equipment they have installed much like electricians.
The International Tellecommunication Union, of which South Africa (and ICASA) is a member is aware of the situation and at some point will also issue clear directives of how to handle this noise pollution.
South Africa complies with all directives from the ITU as do most countries in the world - a vital organisation otherwise radio comms would be in chaos internationally.
(Imagine the aircraft bands being full of CB style operators free to get on the air without any regulation!!)
The solution is undoubtedly the compliance of imported equipment with strict design requirements that eliminate hash.
Anyone planning to install solar panels, inverters and batteries should proceed with caution and demand answers and assurance in writing from the installer.

All electrical equipment sold in South Africa is required to meet specific EMI standards. This is certified either by an NCRS stamp or an equivalent CE stamp.

If manufacturers are forging NCRS/CE compliance stamps/certificates, then it is those manufacturers who are liable. If equipment without a CE certificate is imported into South Africa, then the importer is liable. End users may be forced to remove the equipment, but the manufacturer/importer would be legally required to provide a full refund.

In some cases, the CE certification comes with installation requirements (eg the Sunsynk ferrite cores on external wiring). If the installer fails to correctly install the device, and this results in EMI, then the installer would be liable.

Legal EMI emission levels are very low, and should not harmfully interfere with any approved RF comms more than a few meters from the source.

So, basically, if an inverter is generating harmful levels of EMI, then either someone has committed fraud, or failed to follow the installation instructions (or the inverter is actually faulty).

[snoopy]

And if government approved them as suitable for use in SA - they too are liable for not doing due diligence. Reminder - local government published a list of inverters (specific models of specific brands only) that were the only models and brands allowed to be installed. They refused to allow you to install anything else.

If they want to backtrack on that now, I see a class action law suit coming their way. If any end user has to remove their existing state approved installation for which a professional engineer had issued a CoC at a very costly fee.

Again the testing of these brands by radio hams themselves, have not shown that its a consistent problem with every installation of exactly the same devices (and different brands - including the most popular brands sold in SA ) as some assume.

No general application...perhaps all radio hams using short band should be forced by law to install RFI suppression if they choose to run their radios off inverters or in close proximity to any inverter.

The (Victron brand) tests I've seen have all only been simulated where the radio is placed very close to the actual MPPT controller. Not at a reasonable distance from it. So not really a real world scenario unless you live in a pigeon hole or a camper van. The results have also been different with different types of antennas connected to the radio sets.

Get your vehicle's alternator and ignition system ICASA approved as well while you at it. There are 11 million registered vehicles in South Africa, by comparison there are only a few thousand (2400 a few years ago, less than 50% of the total number in 1994 - its a dying interest in SA) amateur radio licenses valid in SA.

Back in 1994 0.012% of the SA population had a amateur radio license. You dont need a ham radio to instantly communicate across the globe anymore and you dont need SW for that any more either. Those days were fun, but they long gone. I doubt that you will find any RFI in the satcom bands from inverters, cables, or solar panels. And I am yet to hear RFI noise from these devices on a cellphone network.

Often heard RFI noise from cars on a radio set as they passed by, even 50m or more from your radio set. You could even hear the car accelerating and decelerating on your headset. Nobody did anything about those design parameters. Even though its against the Act right?

[heisan]

And if government approved them as suitable for use in SA - they too are liable for not doing due diligence. Reminder - local government published a list of inverters (specific models of specific brands only) that were the only models and brands allowed to be installed. They refused to allow you to install anything else.

Government approves the inverter based solely on the NRS certification (which also daisy chains to an EMI certification). So if an approved inverter is generating excess EMI then the vendor has probably committed fraud.

[snoopy]

then the vendor has probably committed fraud.

The vendor would work on the passed standards provided by the manufacturer - so it would be the manufacturer misrepresenting the product.

A government that demands that only a specific list of devices are used in SA, would need to do due diligence - if they didn't - they are liable if they now change their story, the sum of money spent on these devices per household or business is huge - a class action law suit will sue for a huge figure also (Think Billions of ZAR). Governments need to comply with all their own laws already in effect when they write new regulations that prescribe only certain devices as being compliant for SA consumers to use.

Radio interference would be a international issue on SW - if it really was a huge design concern globally in terms of this technology. It wont be a SA specific problem. The systems sold here in SA were sold and installed overseas long before the industry took off in SA.

The top 2 solar inverter manufacturers in the world are Chinese. China has 240000 radio amateurs (June 2024 CRAC stats) thats 100s of thousands more than SA, so if the problem was truly significant - it would have surfaced in China long ago, and addressed by the manufacturers so as to not lose their lead in the global market. Shortwave is the same frequency band all over the world - SA and ICASA doesn't have an extra special short wave frequency band.

Importante - make sure you are not buying fake branded knockoffs of any brand - TIA, like the CS panel fakes that were sold in SA a while back. Every panel and inverter of the leading brands sold in SA that is genuine, has a serial number used to register its warranty. I insisted the serial numbers of all my components be listed on the installers invoice. And I checked each and every one of them, before they were installed, because this is Africa.

As for trying to force or threaten removal of installations (private assets) just because of a couple of complaints - whoever tries that will learn a Section 25 lesson in a court, just like SAPS did. A high court case that set a legal precedent for any similar cases in future. SAPS tried to remove private assets of civilians through new legislation amendments and then tried to enforce those law amendments - the high court told them to go and fly a kite because it was unconstitutional.

Even with the best brands manufactured in the world, you always get a couple of duds, including poorly shielded radio ham sets, and in Africa you get a lot of counterfeit goods also.

Furthermore there is no proof that these brands consistently cause the same problem with all their devices - if fact there is evidence to the contrary, and the irony is that the evidence comes from radio hams.

My neighbours used to call me "fiddler on the roof" in my radio amateur days, because I was always fine tuning antennas I built.. from the roof. No shortwave antenna is equally effective at all shortwave frequencies. They aren't perfect devices either and only work best for its exact cut frequency, add a not so perfect receiver and you will make the antennas limitation even worse. Shortwave receivers are only as good as its antenna, no matter how sophisticated or expensive they are.