Saldanha airshow crash - Impala down

[No Fly No More]

"Highly experienced pilot" just doesn't quite go with a seemingly botched aerobatic manouver AT TOO LOW A LEVEL.

I'm with Mike Wissing on this one.

Condolensces to his family, friends & fellow aviators.

[Whirly]

I think what Dean is saying is that he has given CAA very clear pictures of the aircraft as it was crashing, something that is not normally available. I am sure the pictures will be of great help during the investigation.

I'd say, well done Dean, although it must be upsetting watching it unfold, and having just taken pictures of the pilot strapping in. Not something any of us want to experience.

Whirly.

[Whirly]

"Highly experienced pilot" just doesn't quite go with a seemingly botched aerobatic manouver AT TOO LOW A LEVEL.

I'm with Mike Wissing on this one.

Condolensces to his family, friends & fellow aviators.

That is a bit broad as many higly experienced aerobatic pilots have died, or crashed during airshows. Think of Nick Turvey, Glen Dell, the L29 and L39 guys, Nick Minnukhuis (spelling), etc. There are many examples.

The margin for error during low level aerobatics are so small, and even highly experienced aerobatic pilots are not perfect.

I watched a highly experienced F18 display pilot hit the ground after a low level loop, his last display before retiring. As a novice, and non aerobatic pilot, I knew he wasn't going to make it as soon as he came out of the loop.

Whirly.

[Volo]

The still image just before ground contact shows that what appears to be full flap deployed.
I don't know if it would be normal to roll with any flap at any speed but I would not have - flaps don't work well upside down .
Did he have flap deployed and not know this ? Perhaps he was set up for a circuit and landing and this maneavour was just impromptu?

[Whirly]

The still image just before ground contact shows that what appears to be full flap deployed.
I don't know if it would be normal to roll with any flap at any speed but I would not have - flaps don't work well upside down .
Did he have flap deployed and not know this ? Perhaps he was set up for a circuit and landing and this maneavour was just impromptu?

Volo,

As I, and others have said, if you read the whole thread, this "dirty roll", with the uc and flaps down, is part of the routine. I have seen it done many times in this very aircraft at airshows.

Whirly.

[7675]

What are the chances of a pitot problem? Over reading IAS?

[Coxxie]

We will never know if there were any mechanical failures (unlikely), unfortunately!

[Coxxie]

What are the chances of a pitot problem? Over reading IAS?

We will never know, unfortunately!

[Whirly]

What are the chances of a pitot problem? Over reading IAS?

Maybe, but Dragon said he did not pitch the nose high enough, to start with.

Whirly.

[Dragon]

Hi Volo, here, I can stand in his defence:

The still image just before ground contact shows that what appears to be full flap deployed.

In an Impala this is only T/O flap, (Landing flap is almost 80 degrees- the proverbial barn door.)

I don't know if it would be normal to roll with any flap at any speed but I would not have - flaps don't work well upside down .

I think I used to do Impala dirty rolls without flap but can't really remember; either way it makes little difference except to rob speed if not enough power is selected. This is because the manoeuvre is flown at zero G with zero AOA and being upside down makes no difference to the wing airflow- in a fighter the sky is 3D and up down with respect to the aircraft has no relevance. If there was negative G then different story, but you can see how this could just as easily occur in any orientation eg vertical/erect/ inverted. It this the AOA that counts.

Did he have flap deployed and not know this ? Perhaps he was set up for a circuit and landing and this maneavour was just impromptu?

He must have known. There is no place for impromptu in LL aeros, and he was more professional than that. His sequence is supposed to be set in stone and a validation with the identical sequence should have been flown the previous day ( I hope this happened)

What really gets me is that I have been calling for each display of this nature, to have a GLO (ground liaison officer) on frequency on the ground to monitor the show. This person needs to be qualified in the display of the exact aircraft flown, and thus know the aircraft and the sequence intimately. He/she then could have called a "knock it off" the second the roll was initiated at too low a speed with the nose insufficiently lifted, (or in Glens case the second he tried to start a downward manoeuvre with insufficient height) - it was clear to the experienced eye at this instant that the subsequent crash would unfold. The GLO at an airshow is lifesaving. LL aeros is very unforgiving but there are steps we can take to improve the odds. It pains me that this doesn't get done.

[Chris-Cub]

Ok, so theres a lot of running out of air space type accidents related to the ground, and they just seems so unnecessary but still happens, so this question pops up in my mind: Should pilots at airshows not have a "buddy(s) on the ground" warning them(Quick code word) of possible problems coming related to perspectives the pilot seems to have lost, or would this not be practical-?

[Nosewheel]

This is very very sad. I have flown with James on many occasions, he was strict as hell but a Awsome aviator “you either fly the numbers or you don't fly you choose”.
Unfortunately sometimes even the best of the best gets into trouble or gets caught out by something unpredictable. Dave Scott, Glen Dell, Glen Warden, Gianfranco, James and even Captain Stewart Lithgow.
I guess this is why they say keep the blue side up.

Condolences to the Family and lots of love.

[Dragon]

Ok, so theres a lot of running out of air space type accidents related to the ground, and they just seems so unnecessary but still happens, so this question pops up in my mind: Should pilots at airshows not have a "buddy(s) on the ground" warning them(Quick code word) of possible problems coming related to perspectives the pilot seems to have lost, or would this not be practical-?

Yes indeed. See my post just above yours- you probably posted at the same time and didn't see it.

[rooibok]

Deepest condolences to the family and loved ones in the wake of this tragedy.

I’m curious to know, from those who were there, what effect the low cloud had on the discernible horizon on the day.

[Roger]

@Dragon does this GLO position already exist in some disciplines/areas?