Ukraine / Russia Situation

[apollo11]

No not suggesting a unthinking myopic action of entering into war with Russia, what I’m suggesting is a concerted flexing of substantial military deterrent against Russias ever increasingly barbaric war in Ukraine, but not just Ukraine, like Iran they are meddling, arming and a catalyst toward some nasty people in the world, the Russians have supplied Hamas, Iran, Houthi, Hezbollah to name a few.

Over the past few decades, they caused misery and wars with absolute brutality in their methods to their surrounding neighbours.

Putin is a kleptocratic piece of nasty that, due to mostly ego, has caused massive apocalyptic-like carnage in Ukraine, and brutally oppressed any real truths about the war in Ukraine inside Russia.

What do you suggest the world do, allow this tyrant to do whatever he likes without consequence?

The atrocities are overflowing into thousands of pages from Russian actions in Ukraine.

News flash, he will not stop until he is stopped.

I’ve also served myself, PF SADF 6 years, SAP/S another 5, been there, done that, worn the t-shirt, that was Russia then, mostly in advisory and training roles.

Russia is a massive war machine being held back by a tiny force, Ukraine, in comparison for 3 years+

This is a whole different ball game compared to the bush war.
Russia never attacked Johannesburg, Pretoria, Cape Town, other cities, towns, and civilians in SA per se, never launched missiles into SA, or used aircraft, submarines, warships to attack our cities and towns, , never entered SA with thousands of tanks and artillery pieces or entered SA airspace or waters to attack, never sent in waves and waves of hundreds of thousands of soldiers to attack in SA, a minuscule fraction used in Angola compared to Ukraine, very different.

Russia never used sea, land, and air against SA inside borders, in Ukraine, launching heavy ballistic missiles often almost daily for months on end on Ukrainian villages, towns, and cities, kidnapped and abducted thousands of children, and treated prisoners with brutal torture.
This war makes the Bush War look like birthday Ken on a piece of cake. But you know that.

And not meaning to tone down the SA bush war, it was nasty in its own right.

[Christopher]

@crash: <The fact is that the war is a 2 way street - even though Russia does not publish all the misery on that side on social media>

Bollocks! No way is this conflict a proper two-way street: Ukraine has been limited to a defensive action and you are fully aware of this, as is everyone. Many pages back I wrote that it needs #47 and his cronies (vance) to give their "go-ahead" and allow Ukraine to send missiles into Moscow and the Kremlin in order to give putin a bloody nose -- that is the only thing that is going to stop this war. (We know that Ukraine is capable of targeting the Kremlin: remember the drone that hit the roof of that establishment, many months ago?)

Furthermore, I would hazard a guess that there has been very little civilian misery on the part of Russians, since Ukraine has been thus restricted.

[crash]

@crash: <The fact is that the war is a 2 way street - even though Russia does not publish all the misery on that side on social media>

Bollocks! No way is this conflict a proper two-way street: Ukraine has been limited to a defensive action and you are fully aware of this, as is everyone. Many pages back I wrote that it needs #47 and his cronies (vance) to give their "go-ahead" and allow Ukraine to send missiles into Moscow and the Kremlin in order to give putin a bloody nose -- that is the only thing that is going to stop this war. (We know that Ukraine is capable of targeting the Kremlin: remember the drone that hit the roof of that establishment, many months ago?)

Furthermore, I would hazard a guess that there has been very little civilian misery on the part of Russians, since Ukraine has been thus restricted.

Thank you for clearing that up.
I am sure the families of the deceased civilians in Russia will feel much better knowing that there is little civilian misery to speak of.

I would like to agree with mr Wessels in a previous post.
As we seem to agree that peace is not achievable - let's simply forget that option - lets go for broke ,
Let's send the whole lot to Ukraine and go to war with Putin, and bomb the crap out of him.
Lets drop some long range missiles on Russian targets - let's show them (Russian misery is neglible so far - so that's ok - hey )

I am sure Putin will not revert in any way - weak and all that - you seem to have it figured - matter of informing nr 47.
So - no delay - lets get our boots on and go for it
What's another Million dead anyway ?, who's counting ??

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[Whirly]

You realize Mr Wessels is being facetious.

Whirly.

[apollo11]

You realize Mr Wessels is being facetious.

Whirly.

Indeed, but call it out straight for what it is.

Nothing is impossible until it’s done, Russia has way over inflated its invincibility to The West whom almost cowered in the myth and has acted like a deer in headlights.

The world will be in a much more dangerous place if Putin is not stopped. (Not necessarily The West attacking him - yet, but a clear resolve that they will if he does not withdraw, it’s the only language and action Putin will respect - he is a narcissistic bully needs to experience back foot fear in his face to comply.)

This needs backbone and conviction from The West.

This war will have consequences and ramifications globally if Putin gets what he wants, and certainly a Ukraine 2.0 for Russia in another decade or so, and a clear message to China, Nkorea that do what you like The meek West will just throw equipment in and watch from their comfy chairs when you choose to invade.

[rainier]

Guys, Putin cannot be stopped by posturing or any military action that does not touch him directly. He cannot stop what he started without severe consequences to him and that means his immediate support base as well. Realize this.
The ONLY way to stop the madness is to remove him by force in whatever way possible. I do not see an alternative to this.

[crash]

You realize Mr Wessels is being facetious.

Whirly.

So am I Sir,

The amount of posts that are calling for :

Let's destroy Putin
Let nr 47 send over some log range missiles
We should "give back" to the Russians etc etc (cause another million dead ??)
Time to step up - and go for all out
Let's kick the Russians out of the Ukraine

Are nauseating to say the least, and every discussion about a way to peace is met by the same

Putin is a monster
Putin will attack more countries
Russia need to be destroyed

I would like to suggest those posters send their kids over and get started
I will not be joining

The reality is that Russia has annexed a part of the Ukraine / and the Crimea - and will not give it back.
Learn to live with it - accept it and find a way to the negotiating table
This is a war that Ukraine can not win - unless NATO steps in (and that will not happen)

As for Russia "attacking" or "invading" the Baltics
I have no idea who founded that story - but in my view it is simply a BS story to justify the military spending in the EU.
No way is Putin going to take on any country that is under article 5
He has been struggling in the Ukraine for 3 years - now he is going to tackle Poland or Germany ?
Come on - let's stay real here

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[Brand Wessels]

You realize Mr Wessels is being facetious.

Whirly.

Indeed, but call it out straight for what it is.

Nothing is impossible until it’s done, Russia has way over inflated its invincibility to The West whom almost cowered in the myth and has acted like a deer in headlights.

The world will be in a much more dangerous place if Putin is not stopped. (Not necessarily The West attacking him - yet, but a clear resolve that they will if he does not withdraw, it’s the only language and action Putin will respect - he is a narcissistic bully needs to experience back foot fear in his face to comply.)

This needs backbone and conviction from The West.

This war will have consequences and ramifications globally if Putin gets what he wants, and certainly a Ukraine 2.0 for Russia in another decade or so, and a clear message to China, Nkorea that do what you like The meek West will just throw equipment in and watch from their comfy chairs when you choose to invade.

My "facetiousness" aside - apart from what we all see in the media (and what we choose to believe), nobody in the EU, or the US are likely to actually "test" Russian military strength. Feeding Ukraine with arms and money is one thing - declaring conventional war against Russia another kettle of fish.

Like all communist dictators, Putin (like the dudes in charge of China and N Korea) does really not care about his public image. It is very much a case of China, Russia, N Korea and all the usefull idiots that support them - all against the USA and the West. Ukraine tried to align with NATO (also with huge support from the Biden US) - Putin was having none of it.

But as far as I am concerned, Russia is just squeezing Ukraine to surrender - no matter how long it takes. He took the parts of Ukraine he wanted and will not relinquish it at all. No matter how much we might dislike it - nobody will openly try to push him out of that territory. Ukraine (with Westen support) will keep on trying, but I do not see it happening. Thinking that the war is prolonged by Ukraine military strength might be a serious lapse in strategic judgment. In Dec the Russians suddenly launched some "serious hardware" in the direction of Ukraine, just as a not so suttle warning of what could be - alerting the US 30min in advance and that it was NOT a nuclear weapon. Putin may be many things, but stupid is not one of them.

Trump seemingly knows who and what he is dealing with - he openly shows respect to all these communist dictators (calling them "friends" and "smart", etc.), while at the same time trying to untangle the Ukraine/Russia war with some diplomacy and an increasing show of military strength - while he really wants to focus on his US agenda. And China. Hence the little tariff shindig. In reality Trump consider Russia, China, N Korea, Iran, etc. enemies to the US. I don't buy all the "Mr Nice Guy" rhetoric. The Panama and Iranian "situations" is a serious thorn in the flesh of the Chinese.

The main reason why every power-hungry dictator on the planet has been flexing their muscles the last 4 years, is because they had l no respect for the USA and its perceived weakness.

I don't particularly like Trump - but I do respect his ability to get things done (reminds me of Margaret Thatcher in that way). And if need be, I believe he will go to war (not just a tariff war) if he believes it is required. And if Russia and China also believe that, it is a good thing for all of us. Uncluding Ukraine.

[rainier]

I'm not sure where you get the idea from that Putin is a communist dictator. There never was such a thing in Russia. There was a politbuero with a chairman that was volnurable to removal if things did not go well as history has shown. It was a one party democracy.
Brief flirtation with a multiparty democracy in its infancy was attempted after the communist system collapsed.
This ended with Putin getting into power supported directly by the Oligarchs that believed he would bring stability. This was in fact the case - he did. But he immediately and cleverly manipulated the new Russian constitution to stay in power (first using a swap position with Medelev approach until he was powerful enough to dictate changes to the constitution making him effectively president for life).
Putin's real face started emerging during the 2007 European security conference in Munich. He gave a very revealing speech that was roundly dismissed and ignored. The transcript of this speech is freely downloadable from the Kremlin's website if you have an interest. Yes, translated into English.
He clearly set out his path and what he was going to to right then already. What we are seeing going on in Ukraine is part of this. Sure, things are not going to plan - Putin got unexpected resistance. But the plan does not stop at Ukraine - that's just one step of many.

[Gringo]

I just think the war should stop for the sake of the Ukrainian and Russian people

[tf104g]

You on the other hand… seem incapable of exchanging views with someone who holds a different point of view to you.

As I said previously you appear to come across as an angry and cynical person.

104

I have explained before.
Extremely cynical with repect to the Ukraine / Zelenski and even the EU leaders

Angry - not at all - Realistic is more the answer

As for "different" points of view :
You do not express a point of view, you parrot the news agencies - and repost everything that suits your narrative.
And in most cases that amounts to "poor Ukraine" / "poor victims" / "war crimes" by Russia, bla bla bla
Try typing a post without adding text from newspapers or MSM - that would be a "point of view"

You seem to forget the Ukranians do not send bunches of roses to Russia by airmail either.
The fact is that the war is a 2 way street - even though Russia does not publish all the misery on that side on social media.

Once again - a reprehensible war (Putin is the agressor) but the West and the Ukraine have enough blame as well
So - sit down - talk it out - negotiate - finish it
The Donbass and Crimea will remain Russian - deal with it.


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He's a thought if you are going to respond to what I have posted rather try and read and respond to what I actually say as opposed to what you think I say.

I have no idea where you get the notion that I parrot news agencies. I have stated many times on this thread I do not watch BBC, Sky, CNN, Fox or Al Jazeera – I do not read news papers and I do not look at online news services unless it to follow up on a news report, probably sports related, I might be interested in.

I have said many times, I get most of my information, either from people I know and trust or from Twitter, again from people that have a good track record or independent reporting. I never use MSM unless it is linked to a Twitter article / story I am following. In Ukraine I treat anything published by the Kyiv Post as potentially misleading unless I can confirm it from other sources, however, I find the Kyiv Independent to be generally good with their reporting.

I do read a lot of in-depth articles on Substack and Patreon, I also read books. Non-fiction books written by economists, historians, politicians, diplomats etc.

Oh and the other thing you will not see me use, are the crass and childish emojis like the violin emoji you appear to like using.

You on the other hand seem to like to make it personal, a case in point was my response to Wilco about Gonzalo Lira, you jumped in and said “Wilco, You are wasting your time. He is incapable of absorbing what you are trying to convey.” Yet when kamanya responded to Wilco with more in-depth details, not a peep out of you.

I know you are not naïve, do you honestly believe that you can talk to putin in good faith. Zelenskyy accepted Trumps 30-day ceasefire, putin did not. Since then russia has upped their missile and drone attacks on Ukrainian cities. So much for talking it out.

[crash]

I have said many times, I get most of my information, either from people I know and trust or from Twitter, again from people that have a good track record or independent reporting. I never use MSM unless it is linked to a Twitter article / story I am following. In Ukraine I treat anything published by the Kyiv Post as potentially misleading unless I can confirm it from other sources, however, I find the Kyiv Independent to be generally good with their reporting.

104 - I have no problem with you personally
I find it irritating that you keep posting page after page after page of Ukrainian "victims"
You are looking at it from 1 side only - and are summarizing all the "misery" on the Ukrainian side.
There are 2 sides to this war - and it was certainly (also) caused by the actions in the West (not that it warranted Putin's actions)


“Wilco, You are wasting your time. He is incapable of absorbing what you are trying to convey.”

That remark was made in the same gist, and you just keep proving it.
You are looking at this whole conflict from 1 side only - and do not "weigh it"
Ukraine can not do wrong in your book - Zelenski the hero - Russia all bad.
It is your prerogative - but it get's annoying
(Remember Nordstream for example - ??)

It is like 2 men having an argument and a friend weighing in and defending his favourite mate at the expense of the other - bugger the facts



I know you are not naïve-

Thank you - neither are you
I seem to look at both sides in broader terms - and that seems to frustrate you
Simply because I lived / worked in Crimea and Berdyansk for quite some time (2.5 years)
I realize / and have experienced the antipathy towards Kiev in that part of the world (and that was broad at the time)

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[crash]

This ended with Putin getting into power supported directly by the Oligarchs that believed he would bring stability. This was in fact the case - he did. But he immediately and cleverly manipulated the new Russian constitution to stay in power (first using a swap position with Medelev approach until he was powerful enough to dictate changes to the constitution making him effectively president for life).

Now what does this make me think of ?

Rich power brokers put someone in power
Once in Power he wants a "3rd Term" as he is so "good for the country"
Once in power he starts manipulating the system and is making noise about elections being "unreliable" and (self) appointing the successor
And he is talking up his family members as "suitable"

uhhhhhhhm
For the life of me can not grasp who this would be.

.

[Wilco-LA]

Tf104g and Apollo (sorry in advance for the typos. Long day and typing from my phone)

I agree. Russia is the bad actor. Had Belarus, Moldova, or another non nuclear power attacked Ukraine, NATO would have gotten involved. Unfortunately for Ukraine, a nation with several thousand nukes at their disposal rolled across Ukraine's border.

Hard not to be cynical. Seems the end game of the West is to prolong this war. Military strategists must have simulated hundreds of scenarios and maybe there are a couple of scenarios where Ukraine pulls a rabbit out of a hat and wins.

So what to do? What is the end goal for the West? Supply Ukraine with weapons, keep Russia bogged down, give the Russians their ten or twenty year war, weaken Russia militarily and economically? Do this at the expense of the Ukrainians who have been putting up a good fight against a much bigger and more powerful adversary?
A few hundred thousand more Ukrainians sent to the meat grinder so long as the end justifies the means? Ramping up spending in EU defense industries to keep pouring billions for Ukraine to keep the stalemate going for a few more years?

All this whilst the EU purchases billions in Russian oil and gas which funds the very same war machine destroying Ukraine? And they are doing so because they don't want their very own EU citizens to be inconvenienced by higher gas prices and higher winter heating bills?

Ukraine was attacked by Russia. Russia is the aggressor. But the West sure played Ukraine with promises of NATO membership ascension talks, unconditional "support" against Russia while the EU spends hundreds of billions on Russian oil and gas

Yup, I'm cynical and as an American I'm glad we are taking a step back on this one. Macron and Starmer are free to send their troops into this conflict which will only heat things up. And talk of Germany getting into the fray and Merz ready to supply Taurus missiles ....yeah, that will go real well with the Russians.

And no the Russians won't attack Germany, France or Britain, they will just take it out on the Ukrainians and hundreds of thousands of young Ukrainians will be nothing more than cannon fodder.

Small price to pay is how some see it in the West.
I guess it is a "small price" if that's not your kid, brother, dad, or uncle.

[crash]

Tf104g and Apollo (sorry in advance for the typos. Long day and typing from my phone)

I agree. Russia is the bad actor. Had Belarus, Moldova, or another non nuclear power attacked Ukraine, NATO would have gotten involved. Unfortunately for Ukraine, a nation with several thousand nukes at their disposal rolled across Ukraine's border.

Hard not to be cynical. Seems the end game of the West is to prolong this war. Military strategists must have simulated hundreds of scenarios and maybe there are a couple of scenarios where Ukraine pulls a rabbit out of a hat and wins.

So what to do? What is the end goal for the West? Supply Ukraine with weapons, keep Russia bogged down, give the Russians their ten or twenty year war, weaken Russia militarily and economically? Do this at the expense of the Ukrainians who have been putting up a good fight against a much bigger and more powerful adversary?
A few hundred thousand more Ukrainians sent to the meat grinder so long as the end justifies the means? Ramping up spending in EU defense industries to keep pouring billions for Ukraine to keep the stalemate going for a few more years?

All this whilst the EU purchases billions in Russian oil and gas which funds the very same war machine destroying Ukraine? And they are doing so because they don't want their very own EU citizens to be inconvenienced by higher gas prices and higher winter heating bills?

Ukraine was attacked by Russia. Russia is the aggressor. But the West sure played Ukraine with promises of NATO membership ascension talks, unconditional "support" against Russia while the EU spends hundreds of billions on Russian oil and gas

Yup, I'm cynical and as an American I'm glad we are taking a step back on this one. Macron and Starmer are free to send their troops into this conflict which will only heat things up. And talk of Germany getting into the fray and Merz ready to supply Taurus missiles ....yeah, that will go real well with the Russians.

And no the Russians won't attack Germany, France or Britain, they will just take it out on the Ukrainians and hundreds of thousands of young Ukrainians will be nothing more than cannon fodder.

Small price to pay is how some see it in the West.
I guess it is a "small price" if that's not your kid, brother, dad, or uncle.

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