Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

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Frontiersman
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by Frontiersman » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:15 pm

Romeo E.T. wrote:
GL wrote:Fortunate seems to be no significant damage to airframe. There was a fan separation where large bits impacted the fuselage.
or worse, the separating fan damaging or removing the other engine on the same side...ala EL AL Cargo in Amsterdam

I did notice possible pylon damage from the short on board video clip taken from behind, maybe there is other wing damage that we haven't yet seen.
That was actually a whole engine that came off and took the other one with it, not just a fan, but point well taken. Any bits of the separated fan and/or cowling from this incident that could potentially have been ingested by the other engine would not have resulted in anything good. See link below for the El Al accident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by RiNCEw1ND » Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:33 pm

MadMacs wrote:
dany wrote:Most aero hydraulic oil is red,however, fire resistant oils tend to be undyed, thus light straw color. (But then also, Aeroshell Fluid 61 come in dye and undye version.). Once under pressure most hydrailic oils change a bit in color. Mostly tend to turn darker.
One would think that a standard would be set to safeguard against wrong oils for wrong application.Not so,and manufacturers say that in the computer age it is cheaper to rather control via LABELS then dye.
The different fluids are clearly colour coded with Skydrol or Chevron Hyjet being purple, the old Mil-H-5606 is red (do they even use it anymore?) and the original vegetable oils are blue.

http://ws.eastman.com/ProductCatalogApp ... 1506874837
Just to add to what MadMacs had to say: Skydrol and Hyjet tend to go Brownish or Yellowish (or brownish-yellowish!) after a little use, no longer their nice original purple.

Mil-H-5606 is still used in some flap gearboxes etc on certain 737s offhand. Or aircraft like the Hercules, where it is the main hydraulic fluid! The switch to phosphate ester based hydraulic over mineral based hydraulic fluids was also influenced heavily by the fact that the former are far more fire resistant (this was preceded by the switch to MIL-PRF-83282 for the same reason)
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by JCA » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:15 pm

ddevos wrote:What would have caused the discolouring, since jet fuel isn't brown and hydraulic fluid is usually red, most likely oil then?
Overflow from the toilets!!
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by heisan » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:23 pm

kosmonooit wrote:
GL wrote:Fortunate seems to be no significant damage to airframe. There was a fan separation where large bits impacted the fuselage.
As far as I know the airframe and wing are designed to deal with catastrophic engine failures such as this.
To some extent. Uncontained engine failures really should not happen - there are supposed to be safeguards inside the engine to keep failed components in side (or out through the tailpipe).

If an uncontained failure does happen, there are various design requirements to minimise the danger (routing critical controls separately, emptying wing tanks close to engines first, etc). But the possible debris path is so wide, that it is near impossible to design a wing that will be perfectly safe in any uncontained engine failure.

The only previous A380 uncontained engine failure was just blind luck that the aircraft was not destroyed - damage was substantially worse that certification modelling predicted.
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by shadow » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:32 pm

Romeo E.T. wrote:
shadow wrote:You would think it would fail during takeoff not in cruise. How hard do engines run (% of available/possible thrust that the engine can produce ) during cruise.
Average take off dependant on reduced thrust capablity = 91% to 94%
Average climb thrust = 85%-91%
Max continuous = approx 95%
Cruise = 80-85%

approximations of % of N1 RPM

these numbers are a good rule of thumb, if things like computers or EPR gauges go "belly up",
Thanks Romeo, didnt think that the engines on modern airliners were working that hard during cruise, But certainly it seems that they are with those numbers.
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by Romeo E.T. » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:38 pm

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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by jimdavis » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:54 am

Anyone know how much that fan weighs? And what sort of RPM is it running at?

There have to be MASSIVE gyroscopic loads at play, both when it is attached and after it breaks loose.

Would the hub of that fan be a part of the shaft casting? Or is it a separate unit?

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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by kosmonooit » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:57 am

The fan blades seem to be mounted on a reverse cone holder that is fixed to the shaft. Looking closer at that pic from the window, it seems to be shattered, part of it remains on the shaft.

Did that cone mounting fail? or there was a blade failure that caused other blades to pile up and the whole thing to shear off?

Was it a materials failure or something solid that got ingressed?

What I have gathered is that the cowling is designed to handle flying blades, but it seems to have been totally destroyed after doing its job, that's if the fan blades did break off, and not the entire ring. Possibly part of one blade can be seen at the 11o'clock of the stator blades in the same pic.

As far as I know, with most modern aircraft relative parts of the fuselage in the appropriate radial trajectories are strengthen to deal with flying blades as well, which could cause explosive decompression,

(Is there an easier way of posting pics here besides uploading them to a website and posting the a link to the url?)
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by ddevos » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:15 am

kosmonooit wrote:(Is there an easier way of posting pics here besides uploading them to a website and posting the a link to the url?)
Yes, select the "Attachments" tab below the message box and click on "Add files". Browse to the photo/file you want to upload and off you go. Wait for the green tick to appear to indicate that it has completed the upload.
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by kosmonooit » Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:27 am

Thanks - I didn't see that tab

Relevant pics attached of the close up of the fan attachment cone and remnants on the shaft.
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by jimdavis » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:07 am

So am I correct in thinking the cone broke but the shaft was left intact?

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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by DiaanR » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:07 pm

JCA wrote:
ddevos wrote:What would have caused the discolouring, since jet fuel isn't brown and hydraulic fluid is usually red, most likely oil then?
Overflow from the toilets!!
:lol: Can't blame them. I would not even have made the facilities looking out "into" the engine :shock:
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by Thermalator » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:29 pm

heisan wrote:To some extent. Uncontained engine failures really should not happen - there are supposed to be safeguards inside the engine to keep failed components in side (or out through the tailpipe).
Not true, they are only certified to contain blade failures, blades are light. The turbine disks (hub) are heavy....they are missiles when they let go.

I'm curious about Airline SOPS for 1/4 engine failures re landing in one horse towns like goose bay versus making one by one go / no go calls hopping e.g. goose bay - gander - ottawa etc. IIRC a BA 747 a few years back shut down an engine climbing out of LAX and continued across NA and across the Atlantic to destination in London.
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by coline » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:14 pm

Was this a RR trent, or a SNECMA/?????? equivalent?
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Re: Air France A380 loses engine fan and inlet cowling

Unread post by spatz » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:17 pm

Thermalator wrote:
heisan wrote:To some extent. Uncontained engine failures really should not happen - there are supposed to be safeguards inside the engine to keep failed components in side (or out through the tailpipe).
Not true, they are only certified to contain blade failures, blades are light. The turbine disks (hub) are heavy....they are missiles when they let go.

I'm curious about Airline SOPS for 1/4 engine failures re landing in one horse towns like goose bay versus making one by one go / no go calls hopping e.g. goose bay - gander - ottawa etc. IIRC a BA 747 a few years back shut down an engine climbing out of LAX and continued across NA and across the Atlantic to destination in London.
I suspect the difference is between shutting an engine down and having an uncontrolled failure resulting in that much damage, in the first i would suspect some leeway is allowed whereas the 2nd would be get on the ground asap and inspect the wing for damage and then reassess the plan. the pax are inconvenienced sure but at least they are around to be inconvenienced. we also have no idea what the initial failure to aircraft systems were.
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