Happy or NOT

Australian designed and manufactured Jabiru Aircraft/

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Marius Schrenk
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 10326
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:34 pm
Closest Airfield: 300m from home
Location: Inni skadu van n kameeldoringboom.
Has thanked: 75 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by Marius Schrenk »

lessersg wrote:Fransw,

Not my intention or interest. For the Rotax upgrades yes already doing that. Been in contact with this Australian company regarding the mount , seems they have stopped producing as it wasn't cost effective for them. Never the less its pretty easy. We have the sub assembly already done with new crank etc. Will not be turbo charged. Big Bore Kit , EFI and CAM only for now. ( 125 HP more than enough, might normalize EFI ECU allows for this ) Bottom cowl for dual radiators we have. Compliments off.....yours truly. Thought there might have been a use for that. We have most of the gear to start with the engine mount....A good welder and access to NDT / x-ray. Nose wheel needs to be extended by 1 inch, mains by 2 inch's. So the planning is work in progress with a lot of " Brain storming " There are a few others that have already done a lot of the calculations. A lot of very clever people at our field. Engine will come out about 5-6 kg lighter so need to look and see if we can move something around rather than adding weight.
Paperwork....have no clue will find out soon enough. Whatever it takes.

Looking at about 6-8 months with my schedule the way it is maybe sooner depending on other commitments.
How much ? 8-[
Politics attracts crooks and lawyers,most of the time its the same person.
User avatar
lessersg
Post Take off checks
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:00 pm
Closest Airfield: Cape Town
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by lessersg »

Cost for the whole job or the engine?

Engine various ways of doing this. Only looking at the 912 not the 914

1. Timex 912 ULS strip down and rebuild.DIY
2. Mid Life of low time 912 ULS upgrade. DIY.
3. New 912 ULS with upgrades already done ready for installation.Two choices here either turbo or normally aspirated.

I bought a timex 912 ULS , strip down, replaced all the bearings , gaskets, seals, valves, all the bolts etc. Crank was sent for strip down for new bearings, dialing cleaning etc. What the surprised the hell out of me was when this engine was stripped down all the tolerances were still well within spec after 2000 hrs, ring gaps, were spot on , bores were perfect, heads were perfect, only found a bit of pitting on the exhaust valves. So far I have spent around 75K including engine. BB bore kit, EFI, CAM around 130K.
User avatar
Marius Schrenk
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 10326
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:34 pm
Closest Airfield: 300m from home
Location: Inni skadu van n kameeldoringboom.
Has thanked: 75 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by Marius Schrenk »

lessersg wrote:Cost for the whole job or the engine?

Engine various ways of doing this. Only looking at the 912 not the 914

1. Timex 912 ULS strip down and rebuild.DIY
2. Mid Life of low time 912 ULS upgrade. DIY.
3. New 912 ULS with upgrades already done ready for installation.Two choices here either turbo or normally aspirated.

I bought a timex 912 ULS , strip down, replaced all the bearings , gaskets, seals, valves, all the bolts etc. Crank was sent for strip down for new bearings, dialing cleaning etc. What the surprised the hell out of me was when this engine was stripped down all the tolerances were still well within spec after 2000 hrs, ring gaps, were spot on , bores were perfect, heads were perfect, only found a bit of pitting on the exhaust valves. So far I have spent around 75K including engine. BB bore kit, EFI, CAM around 130K.
Reasonable......please keep posting. =D> =D>
Politics attracts crooks and lawyers,most of the time its the same person.
User avatar
lessersg
Post Take off checks
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:00 pm
Closest Airfield: Cape Town
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by lessersg »

So it continues, after everything today's engine run again, still not happy. Found the exhaust valve guide leaking on number 3.. WTF....measurement done and its out of spec....WTF again ........

This head #3

1. Not sure if its one that was replaced during overhaul but has been off now 4 times. Been sent back for new valve seat. ( no charge )
2. Installed by US...ran for 30 hrs or so. Removed for replacing hydraulic lifter.
3. Removed today low BB. Looks like valve guide is out of spec according to the manual
4. Question as I'm not a mechanic. Would a a leaking valve guide cause a drop in BB on the exhaust valve??
User avatar
lessersg
Post Take off checks
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:00 pm
Closest Airfield: Cape Town
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by lessersg »

Parts on order and so it begins new adventure . I have a few more things to post regarding my current engine ...later
User avatar
lessersg
Post Take off checks
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:00 pm
Closest Airfield: Cape Town
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by lessersg »

So guys lets continue need some advise her as Im stumped.....

Cylinder number 6 was removed as the blow by were low found a leak between the cylinder and the barrel, this has since been fixed and tested OK still have not done blow by.

Cylinder number 3 was sent back to the factory as the exhaust valve guide was very worn. This has been replaced amongst some other issue which I have been told are all heat related. Confused here as we have the data that this cylinder was not running hot at all, data was sent to the factory with no further comment....so be it didn't expect anything less.

After all this has been put back still - no blow by been done yet we had a miss or a rough running engine on the right Mag. Checked all the leads and plugs found that we had some suspect HT leads, these have now been replaced. The engine now runs the same on both mags no difference but , heres the issue the engine has almost like a wobble can feel it through the whole airframe to best explain it almost like there is a bad engine mount. First thought- checked the mounts all good. Checked the plugs again found number 6 exhaust had almost no gap so corrected this. Still the same. All the cylinders have spark, EGT and CHT are all normal same with Oil pressure etc.
Tomorrow we going to do Blow by again and see if this shows anything. If not maybe change all the plugs.
If you rotate the engine by hand compression is really good on all cylinders, there are no leaks we can hear, no strange noises, in fact very smooth.

Last check other than the Blow by is the prop. This has been machine balanced, runout has been checked, tracking has been checked everything is great... So yip at this stage we are stumped......Suppose if all else fails , motor out and back to george. certainly aint flying it there.

ANY IDEAS......before i paper weight it.

Sorry checked fuelling as well as its fuel injection all good.
We are really baffled and as one would say Gat Foll. Im all Jabirued out....
User avatar
Flooi
1k poster
1k poster
Posts: 1104
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:29 am
Closest Airfield: Fahg
Location: Nigel
Has thanked: 103 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by Flooi »

Is this just a 'bad' engine? Other Jab engines ok? There seems to be a strange silence from
other Jab drivers.... of is hulle net skaam? Interesting thread.......
User avatar
lessersg
Post Take off checks
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:00 pm
Closest Airfield: Cape Town
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by lessersg »

I have no clue . Maybe all this is happening because it has a Fuel injection system and an alternator . But something is not right .
Skaam quite possible know of 2 engines last week both requiring top end overhauls at 400 hrs mine has 30 hrs maybe ....
User avatar
AJW
Tree Tousand
Tree Tousand
Posts: 3718
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:54 pm
Closest Airfield: FAKT
Location: Midsteam
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by AJW »

Hi

Prop balance?
Be safe
Abrie
User avatar
lessersg
Post Take off checks
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:00 pm
Closest Airfield: Cape Town
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by lessersg »

We checking again today but last check it was perfect
User avatar
Marius Schrenk
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 10326
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:34 pm
Closest Airfield: 300m from home
Location: Inni skadu van n kameeldoringboom.
Has thanked: 75 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by Marius Schrenk »

Flywheel Bolts ?......possible harmonics due to many alterations......this is by no means a Jabbi engine anymore . :roll:
Politics attracts crooks and lawyers,most of the time its the same person.
User avatar
lessersg
Post Take off checks
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:00 pm
Closest Airfield: Cape Town
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by lessersg »

Marius,

You are quite persistent . So EFi will cause harmonics. mmmm who's your buddy.

Flywheel bolts are OK, Prop hub is OK. Have new engine mount coming ....Prop is off for checking balancing and Tracking. Mechanically we can find nothing wrong

Just so everyone knows.

1. EFI Installed. =D> not factory installed EdgePerformance Product.....proper EFI.
2. Alternator Installed. =D> Rotec
3. CS prop installed. =D> AX Sport
4. Cold Start Kit. =D> Rotec.
5. Sorry forgot the Panel is not a standard Panel.

None of the internals of this engine have been touched,,,as build by Jabiru.

So guys what doesn't make this a Jabiru engine anymore. :evil: :evil:

Yea by the tone of my message Im rather P@@@@sed Off.
So to brighten things up order was placed for BB Kit, EFI, CAM, Alternator, Gasket Kit ,set of casing and head bolts, 4 exhaust valves.

Something to wet the whistle....Looking forward to this been on hold for far too long.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Marius Schrenk
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 10326
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:34 pm
Closest Airfield: 300m from home
Location: Inni skadu van n kameeldoringboom.
Has thanked: 75 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by Marius Schrenk »

My point is a Jabbi engine was designed to be a simple "cheap" engine. The moment we start "fixing" it to get more out of it than the original design.....they are no more a Jabbi engine. We often hear roamers of 140 hp Jabbis....with water cooled heads and turbo's etc. Only to hear how k@k the engine is a little later on. :( If you "modify" it....it's no more a Jabbi. I do not believe a Jabbi was designed for a three bladed CS prop. What would be the reason to fit it ?.....to get "better" performance from the same engine ?....without more stress ? and more heat created ? and a change in harmonics ?....I've been told the engine does not like any adjustable prop as they all are cylindrical(in order to be adjustable) at the engine air intake instead of flat to create engine cooling heat below flying speed (on the ground idling).Thanks for showing us your new project it is very interesting.....but a bit out of my financial capabilities. Lood is advertising a very beautiful V35 Bonanza (with a tried and tested 260 hp engine) at R800 000....just R300 000 more than a "modified " Rattex" :wink: :roll:
Politics attracts crooks and lawyers,most of the time its the same person.
User avatar
lessersg
Post Take off checks
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:00 pm
Closest Airfield: Cape Town
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by lessersg »

Marius,

Just a few things. The moment of inertia of this prop is within Jabiru spec, makes the engine more efficient. The EFI system is installed on a number of Jabirus only difference its done by the Factory and is throttle body injection ( therefore approved :evil: )against direct port injection both systems do the same .
This engine is working no harder than any other engine just runs more efficiently.

A constant-speed propeller is a variable-pitch aircraft propeller that automatically changes its blade pitch in order to maintain a chosen rotational speed. The power delivered is proportional to the arithmetic product of rotational speed and torque (radians/second × torque), and the propeller operation places emphasis on torque. When an aircraft is stationary with the propeller spinning (in calm air), air flows past the narrow leading edge of the propeller. This is the most efficient configuration, as the drag forces on the propeller are the lowest. As the airplane starts moving forward, the airflow begins to push against the front, wider cross section of the propeller, creating greater drag.

A constant-speed propeller is able to partly rotate along the longest axis of the blade to take a larger bite of air with respect to the airplane, allowing the propeller to maintain the most efficient orientation to the airflow around it. This balances the tradeoff that fixed-pitch propellers must make between high takeoff performance and high cruise performance.

Here is some more reading......

In a constant speed prop airplane, you have both RPM and manifold pressure gauges. Generally, the MP gauge is the most direct method of measuring engine power output. The RPM gauge becomes a dedicate prop-related measurement giving you feedback on how fast the prop is rotating. Manifold pressure is just the air pressure of the air traveling through the intake manifold before it feeds to the pistons for the compression and combustion cycles. In non-turbocharged airplanes, manifold pressure cannot ever be more than outside air pressure (except for a half inch on takeoff) but can be reduced by "throttling back" on the throttle lever (which closes off the intake manifold butterfly valve). On takeoff, you can sometimes get a "ram air" effect from your forward velocity with the thick air at sea level, and sometimes exceed outside air pressure by no more than a half inch, but that is dependent upon your airplane. Usually the resistance given by the air filter on the manifold air intake will reduce the air pressure about an inch below outside air pressure even if the intake butterfly valve is fully opened (balls to the wall with the throttle).

A real world complex airplane's Pilot's Operating Handbook (POH) will always feature some form of power tables (or graphs) where you are given a matching set of MP and RPM settings which the engineers have determined correspond to a percentage of full power. Normally, there are three percentages considered useful for what is called "cruise power." Those three percentages are: 100%, 75%, and 65% of full horsepower. Also, often the terms, "Economy cruise," "Best cruise," and "Full Power cruise" are used in lieu of the outright percentage of full power values. If your airplane is not equipped with a turbocharger, then at around 6,000 feet, full power will be impossible to achieve because the air is too thin. As you increase the altitude, the max power value listed in the power table will further reduce until at around 12,000 feet you might only see the 65% power settings shown because it's the highest power you can achieve.

For a constant speed prop, you use the prop control lever to set a desired RPM and then the hydraulic prop governor uses the balancing forces of flyweights working against oil pressure on a piston in the governor to maintain that desired RPM setting. On a fixed pitch prop airplane, changes in aerodynamics (such as air pressure and airspeed) will often cause the RPM to rise of reduce without any change made in the throttle's power setting -- sometimes rather significant fluctuations in RPM that require you to throttle back to avoid exceeding RPM red line.

But, on a constant speed prop, within reason, electrical prop governor in this case makes subtle automatic adjustments in prop pitch to counter those changes in aerodynamic forces and therefore the RPM you set is tightly maintained even when you increase or decrease airspeeds or outside air pressures change. This is just one of the advantages to a constant speed prop airplane.

The other advantage of the constant speed prop airplane is perhaps the biggest one. It allows you to change the pitch angle of the prop blades to maintain optimal thrust. You see, as you increase forward airspeed, you have to flatten the angle of the prop blades to overcome what is called "relative angle of attack." You see, as the air flow in the direction of travel increases, the relative angle of the prop blades to the airflow changes since there is an increased horizontal velocity of the air. So, a fixed pitch prop can be carved (or molded) into three different blade angle shapes. These are called: speed props, climb props, or cruise props. The speed props produce max thrust at max airspeed. The climb props produce max thrust at slower speeds (normally Vy climb speed). The cruise prop produces max thrust at the normal cruising speed of the airplane.

But, the constant speed prop gives you the best of the three worlds! For takeoff and climbs, you set full RPM which rotates the blades to their finest angle relative the air flow. Since you takeoff and climb at Vy (which is much slower than cruise or max speeds) you need to rotate the blades to have the most fine angle. But, as you increase speed, you need to flatten out the blades, which is accomplished when you pull the prop control levers aft in the cockpit to reduce the RPM setting. By rotating the blades' angles to maintain this ideal relative angle of attack, you can reduce fuel consumption by letting the optimal blade angle allow you to throttle back the manifold pressure, which reduces fuel consumption but allowing you to maintain an airspeed that with a fixed pitch prop ideal for slower climb speeds would have required a higher level of fuel consumption to achieve.

In short, it is often true that with a given manifold pressure setting, a lower RPM will achieve a more ideal ratio of fuel consumption to speed, but not always. Again, you have to reference those power tables. The power table will give you a listing of altitudes you cruise at with various temperature ranges. If you want to cruise at 75% of power at say 3,000 feet, on a warm summer day, you consult the power table and look up the listings for 3,000 feet and then the column for standard day temperature plus ten degrees and then finally the entry for 75% power. As an example, it would likely show a manifold pressure setting of 24 inches mercury with an RPM of 2850-2900.

But, you always pay a price for anything you get in aviation. With constant speed props you have to pay attention and not put too much aerodynamic stress on the engine's crankshaft. You see, just as with a paddle on a canoe, when you flatten the blades of the prop, you increase the amount of air resistance on the blades. This causes more force on the blades and this force is translated directly onto the crankshaft which spins the prop. Therefore, you never fly with the manifold pressure full out with the RPM dialed way back. Yes, it can give you an outstanding fuel economy, but it can also cause physical destruction to your engine -- nasty little things like fractured crankshafts, exploded camshafts, or even thrown pistons through the engine cowling! These things will grab your undivided attention should they happen!
User avatar
Marius Schrenk
10000 and still climbing
10000 and still climbing
Posts: 10326
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:34 pm
Closest Airfield: 300m from home
Location: Inni skadu van n kameeldoringboom.
Has thanked: 75 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Happy or NOT

Unread post by Marius Schrenk »

Thanks for the lesson. Read your last paragraphs and think about them. I suspect your CS prop is quite a bit heavier than a standard Jabbi plank (about 2,2kg of pine) furthermore I suspect it is a little bit further away from the crank flange (to make space for all the mechanics) I further suspect that the combination of weight and distance play a heavy roll on your crank due to the combination of weight and leverage.There is very little advantage in CS props on small low power engines 100hp range.....why do it ? Why pay R90k for such a prop....to win 5 knots :? :?I would much rather spend the time and energy on streamlining the airflow over/through the air frame.
Politics attracts crooks and lawyers,most of the time its the same person.

Return to “Jabiru”