The Doomed drone industry of Southern Africa

[Triaan]

I do believe this is a fantastic place to engage at to share that knowledge and experience which exists. Which is why it saddens me to see "those others" bring their pessimistic views or adding negativity that has been driving people like yourself away from getting more involved here. Because you are right, there are so many amazing people here that COULD be sharing more but choose not to.

And there lies the problem with in, the "pessimistic" views don't exist because they were merely thumb sucked on a bad friday afternoon. It exists because that is Right now, the reality of You and Me facing South Africa Drone Regulations right now.

South Africa's Drone Industry is at the very bottom of the race because the babysitters of the regulatory authority are many things, and that is.... Too greedy upon the ways they are currently capitalizing on the industry, too scared to be innovative, too lazy and with a no care attitude for this revolutionary evolution of flight that started to take place and is evolving with relentless passion overseas.

We can talk for hours and draw many wows and cheers from the crowd as to the knowledge we have and input we can give, all to no avail, all this talk does not change the fact that the regulations are ingrown and stagnating the industry in our country. Since inception, it is still the same.

Change NEEDS to happen. Show me some of that positivity that will convince me that it WILL happen, otherwise all this talk yet again amounts to nothing.

[Triaan]

Some time ago a friend of my asked me to help him understand the "drone" thing better as he has been very involved at the top level with a very large private security company. They were looking to get involved and innovate their business with this as a leading technology, among other technologies.

I never engaged directly, but the top management team including "the big cheese" went to DroneCon in Durban with specific interest in smart city panels that were discussed. They apparently walked out of that saying they would not invest because the rules and regulation would be stifling to their business with too much red tape.

And this right here is just one of countless of examples that once again proves the point being made by the OP and others that posted, affecting the current drone industry in SA..

I am by no means opposite to your side, after all the above quote is self explanatory and clearly shows your frustrations shared by everyone in the industry in SA, most all your thoughts on here are good intend and clearly you want to make the industry work, i'm just emphasizing our ongoing struggle and no intend or any kind of will to change the disappointing situation from those in charge in SA's never changing drone regulations.

[danie.e]

Very interesting read. I would like to comment from a different perspective in that my field of expertise is from the RC modelling side of "aviation".

During the infant stages of "drone" life in South Africa, many business simply imported and sold to all and sundry with scant regard to the outcome of their sales. Instead of being responsible, the "quick buck" was more attractive and soon drone pilots started doing really dangerous and silly things to such an extent that Authorities had no alternative but to intervene.

During this "initial stage" I wrote quite a lot about this on the model aircraft forums and constantly advocated for the drone industry to be regulated by a similar body as SAMAA with the same structure and regulations pertaining to model aircraft. I tried to convince "dealers" to start educating not only their customer, but themselves as well in an effort to stay off the CAA radar.

It is also necessary to mention that during this phase, as with everything else in life, a few people realized the money making potential and had a big influence in the formation of current legislation to such a point that to enter this sphere of aviation has not only become extremely expensive but vested interests will do everything in their power to retain the status quo. One only need too ask the question as to where the main operators got their "expertise" from during this period to help draw up legislation as the CAA staff had absolutely no clue.

Had my effort (and quite a large number of individuals as well) been heeded, we may have ended with a much less regulated industry, cheaper and with less red tape to enter, yet with sufficient controls to ensure safe operation in the same airspace as "big brother".

My guess is that the drone fraternity in South Africa should put the blame in front of their own door and not general aviation. Model aircraft has been in this country for decades before drones and yet we managed to co-exist without undue interference from authorities. This happened simply because the participants made an effort to self regulate and not become a nuisance to GA. It is in this regard that the drone fraternity lost the plot and now they sit with rules and regulations that are making life very difficult for themselves. (Just maybe, if they opened their ears to the "ou toppies" their plight would have been different)

[nicofly]

Did i read this right ??
your post was an interesting read....until it came to your last paragraph... That doesn't make any sense at all...

First calling it the drone "fraternity" is ludicrous at best. How many people have been injured by drones in South africa ? Tell us, how many accidents were there to date, now let me tell you, overseas the regulations are great, not as overly policed such as in SA. And Yes, there has been no accidents or fatal injuries because of drones to date ! !
And to add to that, they are flying 10s of thousands more drones than US !

So now the commercial drone operators according to you are "fraternity" and in addition you imply that it is their own fault and they need to blame themselves ???? Really ??? What on earth led you to come to this conclusion ???

Second: Commercial drone flying and RC flying are 2 different things entirely.
so trying to "show" us how the model aircraft community is all perfect and without any fault is well, just that....

Their operations is limited to registered designated fields. It cannot be compared whatsoever to commercial drone flying. Yet now this drone "fraternity" as you put it needs to according to you put the blame squarely on themselves ??? Now i've heard it all...

And then the whopper:

This happened simply because the participants made an effort to self regulate and not become a nuisance to GA. It is in this regard that the drone fraternity lost the plot and now they sit with rules and regulations that are making life very difficult for themselves. (Just maybe, if they opened their ears to the "ou toppies" their plight would have been different)

O...Really ?????
No, let me tell you it happened because it is RC flying not DRONE Flying first.

Second, there are RULES and Regulations all over the world for commercial drone flying, perhaps you don't understand that our rules/regulations is ludicrously over regulated compared to first world countries taking the drone evolution safely to new levels unseen by us, and with progress we will never achieve.

Thirdly, please explain in detail what Plot have commercial drone operators missed. This should be entertaining...

And finally opening ears to Ou toppies ??? what the heck has this got to do with any of the above mentioned ???

[nicofly]

I have heard countless of times the saying that "SA drone regulations is some of the best" i wholeheartedly disagree.

How can you make an industry safer if you are not allowed some sort of freedom to consistently test and perfect a new idea on a larger scale that cannot be tested by single test projects.

The industry in SA is Ingrown to its fullest and seemingly getting worse.

Overseas delivery drones are going to take off on a mass scale soon, at least within the next 3 to 5 years, it will be a big thing, how did our ingrown regulations assist in it's development ? Absolutely Zero.

How does it promote the industry from maturing ? It doesn't it does the exact opposite.

And don't come with the idea that overseas the regulations are "unsafe" or the industry is still very "immature" because let me tell you that is a load of horse manure, there has not been ONE drone belonging to a civilian that has taken out an aircraft around the world ever.

There has not been ONE civilian drone involved in any fatal accident.

And this all with drones being flown by the 10s thousands each day for almost a decade now.

Furthermore SA's air congestion and population is a needle in a haystack compared to overseas congestion.

If ever a fatal drone accident should happen, it could happen anywhere, not because of the regulations, but because if the intend is to cause an accident, the person instigating it, would have no regard for any regulation anyway.

There is NO room for any sort of advanced and new concepts to be implemented in SA drone regulations, and when there is a notion that there might be some wiggle room, it's a Pie in the sky, red tape, slow progress, resistance to comply, in short your typical corporate monopoly stagnating tactics are being implemented.

Sa regulations are only there to benefit the Select Few, with greasy palms keeping things stifled and only the top monopolies raking in what should be equally distributed umongst Operators.

[Trevor Duane]

Very interesting read. I would like to comment from a different perspective in that my field of expertise is from the RC modelling side of "aviation".

During the infant stages of "drone" life in South Africa, many business simply imported and sold to all and sundry with scant regard to the outcome of their sales. Instead of being responsible, the "quick buck" was more attractive and soon drone pilots started doing really dangerous and silly things to such an extent that Authorities had no alternative but to intervene.

During this "initial stage" I wrote quite a lot about this on the model aircraft forums and constantly advocated for the drone industry to be regulated by a similar body as SAMAA with the same structure and regulations pertaining to model aircraft. I tried to convince "dealers" to start educating not only their customer, but themselves as well in an effort to stay off the CAA radar.

It is also necessary to mention that during this phase, as with everything else in life, a few people realized the money making potential and had a big influence in the formation of current legislation to such a point that to enter this sphere of aviation has not only become extremely expensive but vested interests will do everything in their power to retain the status quo. One only need too ask the question as to where the main operators got their "expertise" from during this period to help draw up legislation as the CAA staff had absolutely no clue.

Had my effort (and quite a large number of individuals as well) been heeded, we may have ended with a much less regulated industry, cheaper and with less red tape to enter, yet with sufficient controls to ensure safe operation in the same airspace as "big brother".

My guess is that the drone fraternity in South Africa should put the blame in front of their own door and not general aviation. Model aircraft has been in this country for decades before drones and yet we managed to co-exist without undue interference from authorities. This happened simply because the participants made an effort to self regulate and not become a nuisance to GA. It is in this regard that the drone fraternity lost the plot and now they sit with rules and regulations that are making life very difficult for themselves. (Just maybe, if they opened their ears to the "ou toppies" their plight would have been different)

Danie you may feel that there was merit to the regulation being handled by some body similar to SAMAA. But this could just never be possible if one understands the aviation industry, all regulations and technical standards have to align with ICAO. No one at the SACAA just decided things should be the way they are that is garbage spewed by the people who have no clue what is going on and have made bashing the SACAA in this regard a fashion. There are a number of representatives from the various parts which interact with part 101 who are on the ICAO panel and constantly aligning our current national CARS and CATS with ICAO.

Its extremely complex and can only be done on a global level. They are busy pulling parts together from previous ICAO annexes to create the global RPAS CARS and CATS which all signatories will then align with.

Trust me no one could have/would have done a better job. This is not a simple situation like a hobby activity its 1 billion times more complex.

[Trevor Duane]

Did i read this right ??
your post was an interesting read....until it came to your last paragraph... That doesn't make any sense at all...

First calling it the drone "fraternity" is ludicrous at best. How many people have been injured by drones in South africa ? Tell us, how many accidents were there to date, now let me tell you, overseas the regulations are great, not as overly policed such as in SA. And Yes, there has been no accidents or fatal injuries because of drones to date ! !
And to add to that, they are flying 10s of thousands more drones than US !

So now the commercial drone operators according to you are "fraternity" and in addition you imply that it is their own fault and they need to blame themselves ???? Really ??? What on earth led you to come to this conclusion ???

Second: Commercial drone flying and RC flying are 2 different things entirely.
so trying to "show" us how the model aircraft community is all perfect and without any fault is well, just that....

Their operations is limited to registered designated fields. It cannot be compared whatsoever to commercial drone flying. Yet now this drone "fraternity" as you put it needs to according to you put the blame squarely on themselves ??? Now i've heard it all...

And then the whopper:

This happened simply because the participants made an effort to self regulate and not become a nuisance to GA. It is in this regard that the drone fraternity lost the plot and now they sit with rules and regulations that are making life very difficult for themselves. (Just maybe, if they opened their ears to the "ou toppies" their plight would have been different)

O...Really ?????
No, let me tell you it happened because it is RC flying not DRONE Flying first.

Second, there are RULES and Regulations all over the world for commercial drone flying, perhaps you don't understand that our rules/regulations is ludicrously over regulated compared to first world countries taking the drone evolution safely to new levels unseen by us, and with progress we will never achieve.

Thirdly, please explain in detail what Plot have commercial drone operators missed. This should be entertaining...

And finally opening ears to Ou toppies ??? what the heck has this got to do with any of the above mentioned ???

Danie's intentions are only good. I don't think there is any need to go off on a tangent about anything he said. Just be calm and chill out a bit. There is no reason to challenge the guy to responding.
These topics always go completely left because of nonsense like this.

There is always a wrong way to say something. Try another approach rather.

[danie.e]

Thanks Trevor, I could not have put it better

I do however feel the need to explain "Fraternity" to our friend Nicofly. It is quite obvious that he does not understand the word hence the resultant abrasive response.

This from a dictionary:

/frəˈtəːnɪti/ noun

1.a group of people sharing a common profession or interests.
"members of the hunting fraternity"
Similar:profession,body of workers,band,group,set circle

2.friendship and mutual support within a group.
"the ideals of liberty, equality, and fraternity"
Similar: brotherhood, fellowship, kinship,friendship,companionship support

[Shepherd]

Very interesting read. I would like to comment from a different perspective in that my field of expertise is from the RC modelling side of "aviation".

During the infant stages of "drone" life in South Africa, many business simply imported and sold to all and sundry with scant regard to the outcome of their sales. Instead of being responsible, the "quick buck" was more attractive and soon drone pilots started doing really dangerous and silly things to such an extent that Authorities had no alternative but to intervene.

During this "initial stage" I wrote quite a lot about this on the model aircraft forums and constantly advocated for the drone industry to be regulated by a similar body as SAMAA with the same structure and regulations pertaining to model aircraft. I tried to convince "dealers" to start educating not only their customer, but themselves as well in an effort to stay off the CAA radar.

It is also necessary to mention that during this phase, as with everything else in life, a few people realized the money making potential and had a big influence in the formation of current legislation to such a point that to enter this sphere of aviation has not only become extremely expensive but vested interests will do everything in their power to retain the status quo. One only need too ask the question as to where the main operators got their "expertise" from during this period to help draw up legislation as the CAA staff had absolutely no clue.

Had my effort (and quite a large number of individuals as well) been heeded, we may have ended with a much less regulated industry, cheaper and with less red tape to enter, yet with sufficient controls to ensure safe operation in the same airspace as "big brother".

My guess is that the drone fraternity in South Africa should put the blame in front of their own door and not general aviation. Model aircraft has been in this country for decades before drones and yet we managed to co-exist without undue interference from authorities. This happened simply because the participants made an effort to self regulate and not become a nuisance to GA. It is in this regard that the drone fraternity lost the plot and now they sit with rules and regulations that are making life very difficult for themselves. (Just maybe, if they opened their ears to the "ou toppies" their plight would have been different)

I actually rather like what you had to state here, thanks for sharing.

We had actually met in the past once or twice at some fly-inns when I was very active with RC helis. Also, I do remember reading some of your stuff a few years back.

I also agree with you at large. It is the past and massively the current drone "operators" fault for the red tape situation we are in currently based on how people are "taking to the sky's."

Although I do not think SAMAA would have been able to manage this, there is a huge amount of experience and history there that could have included a lot of value at the table when creating the way things could run.
Side note, not sure if you saw the article shared earlier this week about how the FAA want to regulate all RC craft in the states by forcing them to be connected to the internet at all times during flight...
This is such a complex thing to get right and coming from so many various angles of experience that I believe the middle point was missed long ago by everyone involved.

We have been and are at the mercy of individuals that are making decisions based on financial interests versus the innovation of technology and what it could achieve to advance the industry or the passion for this kind of aviation.

For example, drone flight schools certainly helped push things forward. But only until their interests are met and then they sold a remarkably delightful picture to many people that thought this was their way in. I still regularly get people informing me because they possess a license to operate a drone they can operate legally

I do believe the brunt of frustrations come from "newbies" into the hobby or profession with regards to how limiting things are for them.
But you cannot blame them, here is why:

Like Danie, I come from the RC side of things and was a licensed RC heli pilot. If you have ever flown one you would know that you don't just rock up and can start flying. It did not come over night as it endured many years of building, testing, learning to fly, gaining skills and eventually passing the proficiency tests. I won't mention the money lost in learning (read as crashing).
But what was invaluable was the ability to go to an RC field and spend time learning from people what have done it for many more years than I have. They possess better equipment and took the time to teach you some theory behind flying, complex manoeuvres and building methods that increase the safety of your RC craft and flying as a whole, etc. All the experts you ever met in this field are extremely passionate.

Thats where RC and manned aviation share a lot of commonality. You don't just rock up and fly an airplane. It undergoes many many hours of practice, courses focused on specific areas of aviation designed to improve safety and security. A new pilot also invests a lot of time at the learning from incredibly passionate and utterly professional flight instructors. These instructors take a great deal of time nurturing and guiding a new pilot, so they can learn the proficiencies needed to safely operate and take their passion further or develop into a career.

Drones, and I am generalising to the consumer driven photography/film drones, do not offer either of these above scenarios. You buy it, you charge it and within a few minutes you "master" flying it.

When it comes to AgDrones, delivery drones, surveying or many more complex operations which I think we can all agree it's not something you just rock up and do instantly. These services are driven through specialised companies which usually come out of legacy operators or highly specialised service providers looking to innovate their business through drones.

The largest offenders are the first category of drones I mentioned. From their perspective there is no need for a deep involvement in aviation side of things. Aviation as a whole or flying the drone is not something they are passionate about, but rather the bi-product of that flight is what they are after and most experienced in.
To be perfectly blunt, flying a drone is boring as hell, there is nothing that would tickle the fancy of an aviation nut. Everything about a drone is developed to keep it stable and steady in the air. Its not like flying an RC plane or heli that actually require some understand of flight principles and a significant degree of safety consideration.

Its hard to see a way forward where everyone is satisfied and business is not stifled.

I have started another thread to bounce around some ideas and suggestions of how things could be done different. Please take a moment and add some thoughts, it's an ideas bed and not a debate area so please feel free to share no matter how ridiculous it might sound or implausible it may be. (viewtopic.php?f=286&t=228077

What has me quite frustrated at this time remain how so many people are taking the micky out of the situation. As an individual that leaves me feeling rather helpless in this situation and the CAA aren't doing anything to police the many thousands of offenders. You cant as an individual enter this game and if you did its 100's of thousands of rands and a minimum of 1.5 years, even with a deep understanding of aviation, before you gain final approvals to operate.

Personally I am content to accept the lay of the land as it is, as long is the regulators are carry out their job and policing it as such!
Otherwise its just another bunch of rules and laws we have in SA that people arent going to follow anyways, rendering it useless, expensive and a waste of tax money.

If I may include one last thing; despite the frustrations voiced and followed here. I see that even in manned aviation there are some serious challenges with CAA and regulators as well.

So I don't think the drone fraternity needs to fly off the handles here as we arent alone in sharing frustrations with the regulators.

[Shepherd]

Its extremely complex and can only be done on a global level. They are busy pulling parts together from previous ICAO annexes to create the global RPAS CARS and CATS which all signatories will then align with.

I am quite keen on what this couple mean for the industry at large.

Any news about where the progress is at or what the next steps are?

[nicofly]

Did i read this right ??
your post was an interesting read....until it came to your last paragraph... That doesn't make any sense at all...

First calling it the drone "fraternity" is ludicrous at best. How many people have been injured by drones in South africa ? Tell us, how many accidents were there to date, now let me tell you, overseas the regulations are great, not as overly policed such as in SA. And Yes, there has been no accidents or fatal injuries because of drones to date ! !
And to add to that, they are flying 10s of thousands more drones than US !

So now the commercial drone operators according to you are "fraternity" and in addition you imply that it is their own fault and they need to blame themselves ???? Really ??? What on earth led you to come to this conclusion ???

Second: Commercial drone flying and RC flying are 2 different things entirely.
so trying to "show" us how the model aircraft community is all perfect and without any fault is well, just that....

Their operations is limited to registered designated fields. It cannot be compared whatsoever to commercial drone flying. Yet now this drone "fraternity" as you put it needs to according to you put the blame squarely on themselves ??? Now i've heard it all...

And then the whopper:

This happened simply because the participants made an effort to self regulate and not become a nuisance to GA. It is in this regard that the drone fraternity lost the plot and now they sit with rules and regulations that are making life very difficult for themselves. (Just maybe, if they opened their ears to the "ou toppies" their plight would have been different)

O...Really ?????
No, let me tell you it happened because it is RC flying not DRONE Flying first.

Second, there are RULES and Regulations all over the world for commercial drone flying, perhaps you don't understand that our rules/regulations is ludicrously over regulated compared to first world countries taking the drone evolution safely to new levels unseen by us, and with progress we will never achieve.

Thirdly, please explain in detail what Plot have commercial drone operators missed. This should be entertaining...

And finally opening ears to Ou toppies ??? what the heck has this got to do with any of the above mentioned ???

Danie's intentions are only good. I don't think there is any need to go off on a tangent about anything he said. Just be calm and chill out a bit. There is no reason to challenge the guy to responding.
These topics always go completely left because of nonsense like this.

There is always a wrong way to say something. Try another approach rather.

The following is entirely relevant and not nonsense at all sorry you have it wrong:

Telling the drone "fraternity" they have lost the plot and they brought everything upon themselves when in fact no harm has ever been caused by commercial flying drone operators around the world does not sound like good intentions sorry. If he tried a different approach then the response he received would have been different.

[nicofly]

Thanks Trevor, I could not have put it better

I do however feel the need to explain "Fraternity" to our friend Nicofly. It is quite obvious that he does not understand the word hence the resultant abrasive response.

This from a dictionary:

/frəˈtəːnɪti/ noun

1.a group of people sharing a common profession or interests.
"members of the hunting fraternity"
Similar:profession,body of workers,band,group,set circle

2.friendship and mutual support within a group.
"the ideals of liberty, equality, and fraternity"
Similar: brotherhood, fellowship, kinship,friendship,companionship support

The only thing that is obvious is what you said wrt regulations being what it is due to some non existent reason being the drone industry's operators fault, which was not good intentional at all.

You lost it again, I don't need an explanation of what Fraternity means, i know exactly what it means...

It was the context that it was used within that was upsetting.

[Trevor Duane]

Its extremely complex and can only be done on a global level. They are busy pulling parts together from previous ICAO annexes to create the global RPAS CARS and CATS which all signatories will then align with.

I am quite keen on what this couple mean for the industry at large.

Any news about where the progress is at or what the next steps are?

Unfortunately I do not know what the time line is or how the tasks are being prioritized.

As for impact well it would be as any form of aviation under ICAO that the same regulations and standards would apply within the state of any ICAO signatory.
The changes to the requirments for an Air Services License are one of the first amendments to align with the ICAO reccomendations.