Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), commonly known as a drone and also referred to as an unpiloted aerial vehicle and a remotely piloted aircraft (RPA) by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), is an aircraft without a human pilot aboard.

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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by heisan »

viki wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:39 am Here's some lovely examples indeed :

https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/10/0 ... -of-the-us

https://www.manna.aero

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2022/1 ... sk-dublin/

"Drone deliveries have finally become a reality in parts of the United States, and for some users, they arrive in less than 15 minutes.

Several drone delivery services including Amazon, Alphabet-owned Wing and Israeli start-up Flytrex have started operating in the country after receiving a green light from the Federal Aviation Administration."

"Tiffany Bokhari lives in Frisco, Texas. She first tested Wing's drone delivery app out of curiosity, and she did it again when she needed a band-aid.

It's now the third time a drone brings her the light goods she ordered from her smartphone – in this case, snacks and that cold soda."

"I think it's better to be delivered by drone versus car because it's helpful for the environment, you know. It saves gas, and money, and saves the environment," she said.

As for Australia
Drone delivery has become increasingly integrated into the lives of Australians over the last several years. Wing completed more than 100,000 drone deliveries in Australia last year, and has already surpassed 30,000 in just the first two months of 2022.01 Mar 2022.

The international stage is making us look like toddlers trying to play in a sandpit !

In reality we have too much red tape, too much over regulation and a few odd individuals keeping it this way as it suits their pockets and lack of inspiration for the industry.

No matter how much "talk" there was since 2016 that regulations have changed, that the drone industry would expand and provide more job opportunities in SA, (and there has been a lot of talk) nothing ever comes to fruit, there has never been ANY progress to push the industry forward in South Africa.
You quote facts, but they do not support your argument.

Yes, there are drone deliveries happening in those countries. But that does not say that there is less red tape - it just says that some companies have knuckled down and fought through the red tape in order to perform drone deliveries.

As I pointed out, Amazon in the US is operating its drones on a Part 135 license - which is a massive regulatory overhead - far far heavier than doing the same thing in South Africa.

All of those countries have similar, or even more cumbersome, regulations than South Africa. The difference is that the operators work to comply with the regulations, rather than whining about them.
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by viki »

No thats the fine line that gets misunderstood and where i disagree having first hand experience as i have worked for a drone company Myself in SA and we did everything by the book, had countless of meetings with CAA, waited years and years, but everytime we submit our paperwork to comply with their demands there is always some more ludicrous hoop that needs to be jumped through, more unneeded paperwork they are NOT interested in progressing the industry whatsoever.

If that was the case we would have had drone deliveries by now, we would have had the industry flourishing in a diversity of fields right now.

Their pockets gets overflowed each month doing business the way it has been done since 2016 and thats all they care about, there is no DRIVE, and no inspirational team Behind the regulations in SA.
The regulators in South Africa is NOT willing to work with companies pursuing lucrative drone bushiness opportunities as it will delve into their existing monopoly of existing business.

So while the laws might be similar in some instances overseas, Overseas they are 100% willing to take the industry beyond the little sand pit that we found ourselves in squealing and squirming like little worms.
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by heisan »

And yet we have things like this:

https://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=251844

Apparently not all people run into the same walls.
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by viki »

NO most everyone do, SANBS is a very privileged exception.
Bottomless pockets can do wonders.
But it Does'nt mean anything for pilots whatsoever anyway.

First it has taken 6 years to get something like this approved.
Second,they are planning to train existing staff to use the drone, and that will create one or 2 jobs internally and thats it, not going anywhere else.
I have had a few conversations with Jonathan at SANBS in the past and there is no intention of using rpas pilots from outside the company.
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by heisan »

Yup, and it took Amazon 8 years to get their approval in the US - you could argue from that, that our regulations are indeed easier than the US.

The hoops are many and varied - but they can be jumped through, and South Africa's regs are pretty much 'middle of the road' in international terms.
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by Shepherd »

This thread has been a painful read...

Just shows there is a massive gap between the professional operating industry at large and the general/not so general public's knowledge of various business models/practices from this commercial drone space in SA....
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by viki »

heisan wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:05 pm Yup, and it took Amazon 8 years to get their approval in the US - you could argue from that, that our regulations are indeed easier than the US.

The hoops are many and varied - but they can be jumped through, and South Africa's regs are pretty much 'middle of the road' in international terms.
That is not comparing apples with apples.
Amazon First got test approval back in 2015, a mere 2 years after they first started to test drones elsewhere, which highlights the point once again our regulators is unwilling to push the technology forward because of all the reasons i already mentioned above.
We don't even get testing approval ! Let alone actual approval !

Again SA's regulations comes with a lot of unknowns to the poor newly duped ROC holder. get your ROC and RPL and see what hidden hoops will be thrown at you in addition so you can be stalled from pursuing something that will cut directly into their monopoly. I have seen this happen first hand with 4 companies. And i can promise you this is the case with most operators trying to get to a successful status.
There are many ROC holders out there, not many are really successful directly because of the regs.

Heck you don't even need an ROC to operate in the States !
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by viki »

Shepherd wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:32 pm This thread has been a painful read...

Just shows there is a massive gap between the professional operating industry at large and the general/not so general public's knowledge of various business models/practices from this commercial drone space in SA....
There is NO gap of knowledge when you are faced with regulation that directly prevents you from operating in certain fields whereas a select few have that very privilege to operate. I dealt with most all of them throughout the years.
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by snoopy »

Lots of illegal DIY RPA flying going for commercial advertising purposes....thats part of what compounds the problem for people who want to do it legally; its the rogue flyers that are killing your business and future.

There are only so many registered commercial RPA companies out there - and they aren't many. Yet there is a lot of imagery from camera drones that lands on the net which was taken for commercial purposes at short notice , a lot of it clearly where no drone may fly, evident from the photo - and flown by none of those legal operators.
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by heisan »

viki wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:24 pm That is not comparing apples with apples.
Amazon First got test approval back in 2015, a mere 2 years after they first started to test drones elsewhere, which highlights the point once again our regulators is unwilling to push the technology forward because of all the reasons i already mentioned above.
We don't even get testing approval ! Let alone actual approval !
You are still avoiding the point. You provided 3 examples of 'successful' drone operations in other countries. Each of those operators is likely to have spent over $1 million (much more in Amazon's case) and many years in getting their approvals in place.

Any yet you pooh-pooh the local example of SANBS with 'bottomless pockets' - but I doubt it cost them even 1/10th of any of the examples you provided.
Heck you don't even need an ROC to operate in the States !
Correct - for basic operations (line of site with small drones) you do not need any operating certificate. But for 'advanced operations' like deliveries or ag work, they require a normal AOC (i.e. exactly the same operations certification as for manned aircraft).

While SA's regs aren't the easiest in the world, they are far from the worst.
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by viki »

heisan wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:08 pm
viki wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:24 pm That is not comparing apples with apples.
Amazon First got test approval back in 2015, a mere 2 years after they first started to test drones elsewhere, which highlights the point once again our regulators is unwilling to push the technology forward because of all the reasons i already mentioned above.
We don't even get testing approval ! Let alone actual approval !
You are still avoiding the point. You provided 3 examples of 'successful' drone operations in other countries. Each of those operators is likely to have spent over $1 million (much more in Amazon's case) and many years in getting their approvals in place.

Any yet you pooh-pooh the local example of SANBS with 'bottomless pockets' - but I doubt it cost them even 1/10th of any of the examples you provided.
Heck you don't even need an ROC to operate in the States !
Correct - for basic operations (line of site with small drones) you do not need any operating certificate. But for 'advanced operations' like deliveries or ag work, they require a normal AOC (i.e. exactly the same operations certification as for manned aircraft).

While SA's regs aren't the easiest in the world, they are far from the worst.
No i am exactly on point, Again Amazon Got FAA test approval 2 years after applying, it has taken us 6 YEARS to get to SANBS's case. And it is not just Amazon providing delivery services as i already mentioned. And yes I will STRESS SANBS is not going to provide any job opportunities for existing drone pilots in any case. So they are irrelevant in terms of the point which is that no job opportunities will be created.

I have worked with many companies trying to get through the drone delivery barrier and the lack of enthusiasm to accommodate and promote this ground breaking field and unnecessary regulation is beyond ridiculous ! The lack of enthusiasm and environment that needs to be in place on the authorities side for innovation and advancement for the industry In South Africa is simply not present !

As to your point with ROC/AOC correct, still you can do commercial work in the U.S without AOC albeit without BVLOS operations.
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by Jayson v Schalkwyk »

Where can a person see or get a list of the companies in SA that have an ROC?

Is it with the CAA?

or is it through the drone council of SA? https://dronecouncil.africa/

Or through the commercial unmanned aircraft association? https://cuaasa.wixsite.com/cuaasa
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by Shepherd »

Jayson v Schalkwyk wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:54 pm Where can a person see or get a list of the companies in SA that have an ROC?

Is it with the CAA?

or is it through the drone council of SA? https://dronecouncil.africa/

Or through the commercial unmanned aircraft association? https://cuaasa.wixsite.com/cuaasa
Here is the direct link to the SACAA site where this is load... Not sure when it was last updated though...

https://www.caa.co.za/industry-informat ... -operators
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by Agnies »

viki wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:23 pm
jean wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:09 am
zander wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:40 am
It really is that dumb i agree, our country's drone regulations is the laughing stock of the world, being controlled by an odd few for selfish gains and nobody challenging it is one for the Jokes section here on avcom.
You say: “our country's drone regulations is the laughing stock of the world”. Give us some evidence of it? (BTW, should be “are”)
No sorry boet, could be "is" or "are" nothing wrong with either pronouncement ;)

Examples ? Haha good one... if you cant see the constipation all around you, YOU are just as lost as the 1000 + RPL pilots (and more in the making each and every month) that is / was duped into believing the prospects of becoming a full time drone pilot in south africa is reality , but unfortunately reality proved otherwise.

No need for evidence to know the basics you must have been hiding in a cave somewhere ?
Our very constipated regulation does NOT allow for the industry to advance whatsoever ! ! !

Now provide YOUR evidence to the contrary.
This is going to be fun ;)
There is definitely enough evidence to the statement that South Africa is overregulated. I'm RPL holder in SA and cannot make a cent on flying in South Africa, becasue I dont't have ROC (and I have a day job where I'm making way more that I could ever make ss drone pilot). Flying is my hobby, but one that could be easilly monetized elswhere. I am also A1/A2/A3 holder in EU and I amd registered as operator there (can operate in any EU country). A1/A3 was completely free of charge, A2 cost me 10 Euro. Registration as operator was FREE. Isn't it ironic that I can operate perfectly legally in EU (despite not living there) and I cannot in South Africa, where at least I would be paying taxes for the extra income? Cost of ROC process in South Africa is around 200k ZAR. Vs 10 Euro I spent to get myself compliant in EU. If it wasn't sad, it would be laughable.
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Re: Drones should be MORE regulated !

Unread post by Agnies »

heisan wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:08 pm
viki wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:24 pm That is not comparing apples with apples.
Amazon First got test approval back in 2015, a mere 2 years after they first started to test drones elsewhere, which highlights the point once again our regulators is unwilling to push the technology forward because of all the reasons i already mentioned above.
We don't even get testing approval ! Let alone actual approval !
You are still avoiding the point. You provided 3 examples of 'successful' drone operations in other countries. Each of those operators is likely to have spent over $1 million (much more in Amazon's case) and many years in getting their approvals in place.

Any yet you pooh-pooh the local example of SANBS with 'bottomless pockets' - but I doubt it cost them even 1/10th of any of the examples you provided.
Heck you don't even need an ROC to operate in the States !
Correct - for basic operations (line of site with small drones) you do not need any operating certificate. But for 'advanced operations' like deliveries or ag work, they require a normal AOC (i.e. exactly the same operations certification as for manned aircraft).

While SA's regs aren't the easiest in the world, they are far from the worst.
They may not be the worst for large operations, but they are one of the worst for small guys flyinganything lighter than 2 KG drone.

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