COMAC Delivers The 1st C919 To China Eastern

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COMAC Delivers The 1st C919 To China Eastern

Unread post by African Flyer »

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Re: COMAC Delivers The 1st C919 To China Eastern

Unread post by airbusa346 »

Given China's good relationship with most African countries, one has to wonder if any African airlines would be interested in buying the C919 in the future.
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Re: COMAC Delivers The 1st C919 To China Eastern

Unread post by Burner »

airbusa346 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:47 am Given China's good relationship with most African countries, one has to wonder if any African airlines would be interested in buying the C919 in the future.
I'm sure commissions will be paid/palms greased, much like the Y-12/MA-60. The aircraft will arrive, and within a few years due to lack of performance/reliability, spares, and not being able to handle the heavy handedness of African ops, they will sit rotting in the corner of an airport somewhere.
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Re: COMAC Delivers The 1st C919 To China Eastern

Unread post by African Flyer »

Burner wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:51 am
I'm sure commissions will be paid/palms greased, much like the Y-12/MA-60. The aircraft will arrive, and within a few years due to lack of performance/reliability, spares, and not being able to handle the heavy handedness of African ops, they will sit rotting in the corner of an airport somewhere.
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Re: COMAC Delivers The 1st ARJ21 to foreign airline

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C919 first commercial flight

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Re: COMAC Delivers The 1st C919 To China Eastern

Unread post by 7675 »

Nice looking machine. I think it would be foolhardy to discount it just yet. Thank goodness they went with the CFM Leap engine and not the P&W geared engines that are giving so many problems.
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Re: COMAC Delivers The 1st C919 To China Eastern

Unread post by SparkBerry »

Burner wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:51 am
airbusa346 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:47 am Given China's good relationship with most African countries, one has to wonder if any African airlines would be interested in buying the C919 in the future.
I'm sure commissions will be paid/palms greased, much like the Y-12/MA-60. The aircraft will arrive, and within a few years due to lack of performance/reliability, spares, and not being able to handle the heavy handedness of African ops, they will sit rotting in the corner of an airport somewhere.
Twenty years ago, you would have been right, but I think it would be unwise to underestimate this aircraft's potential effect on the market. This a prestige project for the CCP, and as recent history has shown, they don't mess around when it comes to those. Plus, it's packed with Western components, and China has been assembling A320s for some time now, so it's not their first rodeo when it comes to building modern narrow body aircraft. As long as China doesn't ruffle any feathers like, I dunno, invade Taiwan, then those Western suppliers will keep making them and when you're maintaining an aircraft, the majority of parts you replace are manufactured by third party suppliers anyway. If they keep those relationships strong, then spares won't be a problem. This aircraft is not some Soviet knock-off that the China of old always fell back on. This is different, and it's only a matter of time before EASA and the FAA certify it (though I imagine The Duopoly will have a say in that in some way, because let's be honest, those relationships have not always been squeaky clean).

Yes, it will have teething problems, but every new aircraft on the market does. (coughMAXMCAS, coughNEOengines). To put it simply, twenty years ago, you would never have a bought a Chinese phone. Now, how many people are walking around with a top-end Huawei in their pocket?

All I'm saying is, don't write this aircraft off just yet. I think some young pilots on this forum will be adding the C919 to their ratings in the not too distant future.
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Re: COMAC Delivers The 1st C919 To China Eastern

Unread post by evanb »

SparkBerry wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:07 am Twenty years ago, you would have been right, but I think it would be unwise to underestimate this aircraft's potential effect on the market. This a prestige project for the CCP, and as recent history has shown, they don't mess around when it comes to those. Plus, it's packed with Western components, and China has been assembling A320s for some time now, so it's not their first rodeo when it comes to building modern narrow body aircraft. As long as China doesn't ruffle any feathers like, I dunno, invade Taiwan, then those Western suppliers will keep making them and when you're maintaining an aircraft, the majority of parts you replace are manufactured by third party suppliers anyway. If they keep those relationships strong, then spares won't be a problem. This aircraft is not some Soviet knock-off that the China of old always fell back on. This is different, and it's only a matter of time before EASA and the FAA certify it (though I imagine The Duopoly will have a say in that in some way, because let's be honest, those relationships have not always been squeaky clean).

Yes, it will have teething problems, but every new aircraft on the market does. (coughMAXMCAS, coughNEOengines). To put it simply, twenty years ago, you would never have a bought a Chinese phone. Now, how many people are walking around with a top-end Huawei in their pocket?

All I'm saying is, don't write this aircraft off just yet. I think some young pilots on this forum will be adding the C919 to their ratings in the not too distant future.
I broadly agreed. Producing a modern-day airliner is mostly a design, supply chain management, and assembly business. Huge numbers of components are manufactured in a global supply chain. While the C919 is mostly an indigenous design (say mostly since there is a lot that is simply being copied from Western designs), many of the key components come from global supply chains, mostly US, France and Germany (CFM, Nexcelle, Michelin, Liebherr, UTAS, Rockwell Collins, Thales, Honeywell Moog, and Parker). Because of such reliance on Western components and supply chains, they're simply not getting access to the frontline technologies, since in many cases, Airbus and Boeing hold a lot of protections of the intellectual property. Some estimates suggest the C919 is at least 10 to 15 years behind.

On the cost side, the C919 is going to be more expensive than the Airbus and Boeing products, and will have substantially higher operating costs. Some of this is due to the reliance on the global supply chain, and not having the frontline access. Another challenge is going to be reliability of the assembly line and supply chain. Increasing scale while maintaining reliability is where the challenge will come.

I don't think China are going to focus on the export market for the time being. That will be a distraction and proof of concept will be best served domestically. China has a large enough domestic market and demand to absorb all the aircraft coming off the production line without placing pressure to scale up too quickly.

One thing that has been impressive is how patient they have been. There has been no rush for EIS, rather spending a very large amount of time on testing and modification (more than 6 years)!
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Re: COMAC Delivers The 1st C919 To China Eastern

Unread post by SimplyFly »

Agree, Evan. The domestic market in China is enormous.

To my understanding, the domestic airlines belong mostly to the state, either directly or indirectly. I imagine they may be able to manage the demand on the factory, ensuring a market, but not too much.

I don't have hard data on what I said, I am interested in Accommers confirming or correcting this.

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Re: COMAC Delivers The 1st C919 To China Eastern

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Re: COMAC Delivers The 1st C919 To China Eastern

Unread post by evanb »

SimplyFly wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:52 pm Agree, Evan. The domestic market in China is enormous.

To my understanding, the domestic airlines belong mostly to the state, either directly or indirectly. I imagine they may be able to manage the demand on the factory, ensuring a market, but not too much.
They're mostly state owned. Air China, China Southern Airlines, and China Eastern Airlines (along with their myriad of subsidiaries including Chongqing Airlines, Sichuan Airlines, XiamenAir, Air Macau, Beijing Airlines, Dalian Airlines, Shandong Airlines, Shenzhen Airlines, Tibet Airlines, China United Airlines, Shanghai Airlines, and a few others) are either fully or majority owned by the State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission of the State Council, who also happen to own Comac.

Hainan Airlines is owned by Liaoning Fangda Group. Liaoning is not state-owned, but closely linked to the Party.

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