Hot and High operations at FAOR

[ApexKhumza]

Been seeing that Qantas operates their B789 flight to Sydney with a 5pm departure time... looking back when SAA's A343 operating to VHHH at that time had TOW restrictions particularly in the spring/summer time...how is Qantas getting good performance in terms of RTOW, profitable payload and range with the B789 out of FAOR With that specific departure time?

[SERTAO]

It must be affected badly especially during summer. That may be another reason why they are changing to A380 Ops in 2024

[34south]

It must be affected badly especially during summer. That may be another reason why they are changing to A380 Ops in 2024

As a comparison, great circle distance from JNB to Sydney is 1000nm shorter than JNB to New York, plus favourable winds on the eastbound sector makes it a whole lot more doable for a twin. Unless they have crippling ETOPS constraints, which I doubt.

[evanb]

It must be affected badly especially during summer. That may be another reason why they are changing to A380 Ops in 2024

As a comparison, great circle distance from JNB to Sydney is 1000nm shorter than JNB to New York, plus favourable winds on the eastbound sector makes it a whole lot more doable for a twin. Unless they have crippling ETOPS constraints, which I doubt.

Yep, they working with EDTO 330 these days. Some minor diversions occasionally on westbound, but not problematic.

[evanb]

Been seeing that Qantas operates their B789 flight to Sydney with a 5pm departure time... looking back when SAA's A343 operating to VHHH at that time had TOW restrictions particularly in the spring/summer time...how is Qantas getting good performance in terms of RTOW, profitable payload and range with the B789 out of FAOR With that specific departure time?

Since they started with the B787-9 in January 2022 they have an aggregate loadfactor of 75% on the eastbound sector (through to the end of July 2023). Load factor has varied by month with slightly lower loads in summer months but also higher capacity. Average freight outbound of 4.6t per flight. No noticeable freight bias by month though.

Loads and freight better east than west. West carries a lot more fuel given the additional flying time. The modern twins do really well with FAOR, unlike their older generation cousins.

[Jackal]

I have to echo the sentiments. The B787 is a good performer & the -9 the best performer of the lot especially hot & high. It has a much lighter empty weight than a similar sized metal constructed aircraft & it's lighter than the A350. That leaves good margin for fuel & payload.

Still very hard to beat the American Muscle car of the Skies the B777. Those monster GE engines don't find too many limited fields out there.

[evanb]

I have to echo the sentiments. The B787 is a good performer & the -9 the best performer of the lot especially hot & high. It has a much lighter empty weight than a similar sized metal constructed aircraft & it's lighter than the A350. That leaves good margin for fuel & payload.

Still very hard to beat the American Muscle car of the Skies the B777. Those monster GE engines don't find too many limited fields out there.

Not quite sure what point you're making? The B787-9 is lighter than the A350-900 because it's smaller. So sure, it has a lower OEW (13t lower), but it also has a much smaller MTOW (29t lower). So while it's lighter, it's carrying less fuel, pax and cargo.

I know it's popular to compare them, but the B787s and A350s are not really designed to compete in an overlapping space to the extent popular wisdom wants it to. The A350s are somewhat closer to the B777 in terms of what it's lifting while the B787s are far closer to the A330s.

Just consider this comparison (MTOW less OEW):
A332 121t
A333 113t
B789 125t
B781 114t

Then a big jump to:
A359 141t
A351 167t
B77L 202t
B77W 184t

For what it's worth, Qantas have ordered 24x A350-1000 (in additional to 4x more B789s and 8x B781s). I suspect we'll see Qantas flying the A350-1000 into Joburg sooner rather than later given the limits of the B789 on the westbound sector. In fact, they're taking the B789 off Joburg in the coming months although I'd argue the calculus is more complex than just the B789 westbound performance. See: https://analyticflying.com/surprised-or ... g-in-2024/

[7675]

JNB-SYD is a significant tailwind sector making the flying time much shorter than the westbound SYD-JNB sector. For example, Jan 13th QF64 only took 11h51 to SYD. Far less fuel is required for JNB-SYD than for SYD-JNB. That’s the big advantage of 320min ETDO.

Qantas also operates without alternate fuel into SYD if wx forecast allows for it.