Accident Baragwanath

[Whirly]

If he/she did their licence on a different type, a too fast C172 will catch you out every time. C172s don't like excessive speed on landing.


Whirly, I havn't come across any plane that likes excessive speed on landing!

True, but the C172 is the one guys train on and will bite you every time. To land a C172 well every time, takes time to master. Easy aircraft to fly but sometimes a beatch to land.

Whirly.

[jimdavis]

The instructor is the Pilot in Command. He is responsible for the wreckage.

One of his jobs - apart from teaching the pupe to become a safe pilot - is to protect the airframe from the pupe. He failed to do this.

Also remember that the instructor will be accountable to the CAA - that means they get HIS version of what happened, and he is not going to blame himself.

jim

[liaan]

If he/she did their licence on a different type, a too fast C172 will catch you out every time. C172s don't like excessive speed on landing.


Whirly, I havn't come across any plane that likes excessive speed on landing!

True, but the C172 is the one guys train on and will bite you every time. To land a C172 well every time, takes time to master. Easy aircraft to fly but sometimes a beatch to land.

Whirly.

I must have had brilliant instructor as never had issues with 172's, and no one else at school i was either. fly the numbers, if you cannot do that, go do more basic flight exercises at 4000ft. (slow speed constant high etc etc).
I can still hear my instructor calling the correct speed every time I even went slight bit higher/lower it had to be spot on...
on final, just keep to numbers in manual , wait for ground rush, power off, hold off the ground till won't fly anymore. if you too far down the runway and not on ground yet, go around.

[Whirly]

If he/she did their licence on a different type, a too fast C172 will catch you out every time. C172s don't like excessive speed on landing.


Whirly, I havn't come across any plane that likes excessive speed on landing!

True, but the C172 is the one guys train on and will bite you every time. To land a C172 well every time, takes time to master. Easy aircraft to fly but sometimes a beatch to land.

Whirly.

I must have had brilliant instructor as never had issues with 172's, and no one else at school i was either. fly the numbers, if you cannot do that, go do more basic flight exercises at 4000ft. (slow speed constant high etc etc).
I can still hear my instructor calling the correct speed every time I even went slight bit higher/lower it had to be spot on...
on final, just keep to numbers in manual , wait for ground rush, power off, hold off the ground till won't fly anymore. if you too far down the runway and not on ground yet, go around.

Congrats, Chuck.

Some of us are not gifted.

Whirly.

[liaan]

True, but the C172 is the one guys train on and will bite you every time. To land a C172 well every time, takes time to master. Easy aircraft to fly but sometimes a beatch to land.

Whirly.

I must have had brilliant instructor as never had issues with 172's, and no one else at school i was either. fly the numbers, if you cannot do that, go do more basic flight exercises at 4000ft. (slow speed constant high etc etc).
I can still hear my instructor calling the correct speed every time I even went slight bit higher/lower it had to be spot on...
on final, just keep to numbers in manual , wait for ground rush, power off, hold off the ground till won't fly anymore. if you too far down the runway and not on ground yet, go around.

Congrats, Chuck.

Some of us are not gifted.

Whirly.

Nothing todo with gifted.. as said.. none of the students ever had a issue, Blame the instructors for my chuckness then

[liaan]

True, but the C172 is the one guys train on and will bite you every time. To land a C172 well every time, takes time to master. Easy aircraft to fly but sometimes a beatch to land.

Whirly.

I must have had brilliant instructor as never had issues with 172's, and no one else at school i was either. fly the numbers, if you cannot do that, go do more basic flight exercises at 4000ft. (slow speed constant high etc etc).
I can still hear my instructor calling the correct speed every time I even went slight bit higher/lower it had to be spot on...
on final, just keep to numbers in manual , wait for ground rush, power off, hold off the ground till won't fly anymore. if you too far down the runway and not on ground yet, go around.

Congrats, Chuck.

Some of us are not gifted.

Whirly.

Nothing todo with gifted.. as said.. none of the students ever had a issue, Blame the instructors for my chuckness then

[flysouth]

If he/she did their licence on a different type, a too fast C172 will catch you out every time. C172s don't like excessive speed on landing.


Whirly, I havn't come across any plane that likes excessive speed on landing!

True, but the C172 is the one guys train on and will bite you every time. To land a C172 well every time, takes time to master. Easy aircraft to fly but sometimes a beatch to land.

Whirly.

I must have had brilliant instructor as never had issues with 172's, and no one else at school i was either. fly the numbers, if you cannot do that, go do more basic flight exercises at 4000ft. (slow speed constant high etc etc).
I can still hear my instructor calling the correct speed every time I even went slight bit higher/lower it had to be spot on...
on final, just keep to numbers in manual , wait for ground rush, power off, hold off the ground till won't fly anymore. if you too far down the runway and not on ground yet, go around.

I too never experienced any difficulty or a moment of concern with any C172 - I thought they were a gentle old bus, rather boring to fly since they were so very slow, easy and gentle. But then I was used to a Grumman with short wings and a relatively high wing-loading where speed control at the lower end was critical to avoid an inadvertent sinking into the weeds!

[Whirly]

My office at Wonderboom overlooked runway 11/29, this was in the mid to late eighties. There were a number of flight schools at Wonderboom, they were all using a mix of aircraft. My C172, ZS-IUM, was leased to one of them.

I watched many, many landings daily, sometimes even weekends, lots of good ones, but also some very hairy ones. I saw lots of C172s bouncing along the runway, ballooning or floating forever, my aircraft included.

I think Guy Leitch had someone damage his C182 during a hard landing too, and kept quiet about it.

C172s are easy to fly, but not easy to grease on every time. I am talking from personal experience as well as watching botched landings daily.

Maybe the instructors at that time at all the Wonderboom flight schools were just a terrible bunch.

Whirly.

[southside]

Whirly, I think the reason is that you have always been a heli pilot at heart, and we all know the earth repels them.

As did your 172 when you kept bouncing

[nrm]

The instructor is the Pilot in Command. He is responsible for the wreckage.

One of his jobs - apart from teaching the pupe to become a safe pilot - is to protect the airframe from the pupe. He failed to do this.

Also remember that the instructor will be accountable to the CAA - that means they get HIS version of what happened, and he is not going to blame himself.

jim

Absolutely correct Jim. That is why i have said many people do not understand the responsibility. Student prangs it and it is your fault, your job to fix the f%^&*p, and dto teach him/her how not to do it again. Go round and round the circuit until it is done right. If the students demands another instructor let it be unless you are CFI and the other instructor is yours as well. Then send the strudent to another school.

[Lousha]

I believe that irrespective of which aircraft you are flying as an instructor, and eventually as a PPL or more (GA aircraft specifically), one should be able to judge the speed based on amount of control inputs required and to a degree from seat of the pants. Before I send my students solo, Cover the airspeed indicator and do a few circuits like this to allow them to develop this and prove the relationship between power settings in the circuit and rate of descent on final approach together with the importance of good altitude management in the circuit. Once the student has this down pat, I ask them what speed they think the aircraft is doing at various points in the circuit (once configured after changes) and then allow them to peep at the ASI. After a couple of practice rounds, they are often within 5mph of what they think they are.

We as instructors often allow students to approach at speeds that are too high to check that they are able to firstly recognize this and secondly correct this or make the call to go around early enough.

We even allow the student to attempt the landing - however foolish decision to do this at an airfield like Bara - Lanseria would be more suited to this.

So few pilots let alone students are able to accomplish speed management with rapid changes in altitude (such as being too high on finals) - this should be emphasized more by instructors! After all, its (mostly) all about speed .....

[WagAero]

Just saw a clip on most manufactured aircraft - the 172 takes no 1 spot with over 40,000 built according to the source.

If true, there's a reason for that. I think it's one of the easiest to fly and not suggesting that one takes it easy when you flying one. It's worth discussion though.. and comparing it to other similar aircraft. Think about the characteristics - a solid airbourne platform with great visibility, responsive controls, spin / stall characteristics are good as well as in recovery (in the old days well demonstrated in the full spin). It gives good warning if you at the slow end, it has good glide properties, with early stage flap too. It has a reasonable cross wind capability and provided you loaded for density altitude you good to go. As a training aircraft its not too demanding. Perhaps without a variable pitch prop you not busy enough! On the negative side, it can have power concerns depending on HP of engine. At altitude I did not like the climb rate with full flap after touch and go's.. i recommend to use less flap at high altitude fields!! It's also not a good GA choice as at altitude, its not a four seater.

But then I trained on one. So other than my conversions that showed the vices of other aircraft to be far beyond the those of the 172,.... I bow to those with superior knowledge .

[MaverickKevin]

Would any aircraft forgive the pilot, if he pulled the yoke into his lap during this phase of flight ? Same scenario unfortunately with fatal consequences.

[Frontiersman]

Just saw a clip on most manufactured aircraft - the 172 takes no 1 spot with over 40,000 built according to the source.

If true, there's a reason for that. I think it's one of the easiest to fly and not suggesting that one takes it easy when you flying one, but rather on the discussion when comparing it to other aircraft. Think about the characteristics - a solid airbourne platform with great visibility, responsive controls, spin / stall characteristics are good as well as in recovery (in the old days well demonstrated in the full spin). It gives good warning if you at the slow end, it has good glide properties, with early stage flap too. It has a reasonable cross wind capability and provided you loaded for density altitude you good to go. As a training aircraft its not too demanding. Perhaps without a variable pitch prop you not busy enough! On the negative side, it can have power concerns depending on HP of engine. I did not like the climb rate with full flap after touch and go's.. use less at high altitude fields!! It's also not a good GA choice as at altitude, its not a four seater.

But then I trained on one. So other than my conversions that showed the vices of other aircraft to be far beyond the those of the 172, I bow to those with superior knowledge .

If he/she did their licence on a different type, a too fast C172 will catch you out every time. C172s don't like excessive speed on landing.


Whirly, I havn't come across any plane that likes excessive speed on landing!

True, but the C172 is the one guys train on and will bite you every time. To land a C172 well every time, takes time to master. Easy aircraft to fly but sometimes a beatch to land.

Whirly.

I must have had brilliant instructor as never had issues with 172's, and no one else at school i was either. fly the numbers, if you cannot do that, go do more basic flight exercises at 4000ft. (slow speed constant high etc etc).
I can still hear my instructor calling the correct speed every time I even went slight bit higher/lower it had to be spot on...
on final, just keep to numbers in manual , wait for ground rush, power off, hold off the ground till won't fly anymore. if you too far down the runway and not on ground yet, go around.

I think a lot also depends on what type you started training on originally.

Having done my PPL in 1989 at Wonderboom from start to finish on Cherokees exclusively, while I was still in matric, I had a bit of a struggle to get used to the quite different characteristics of the C172 when I did a conversion onto them in 1990. It also didn't really help that this conversion was done at the infamous Nelspruit airfield after being used to landing at Wonderboom.

From a long, wide and reasonably level runway to a short, narrow and uphill/downhill runway, depending on if you're landing or taking off, and surrounded by mountains. Strictly one way in and one way out at that airfield. Anybody here who has ever flown to that airfield will know exactly what I'm talking about.

My big issue with the conversion was keeping it straight on the runway, I was way too used to the Cherokee series with their direct nosewheel steering, so I tended to zig-zag a bit down the runway with the looser nosewheel steering of the 172. Took me a bit to get that out of my system, but then again, I will readily admit that I'm probably not the most gifted pilot to have ever graced the skies.

As for the two instructors that did the conversion for me in two separate sessions, one was a recently retired SAA 747 captain, and the other one was a Mirage pilot from Hoedspruit Air Force base who did civilian instruction at Nelspruit on weekends, so I don't think their competence as instructors could be in doubt. The Mirage pilot went to SAA eventually, if I remember correctly it was towards the end of 1990 or the beginning of 1991 somewhere

Even when flying to and from that airfield in the early nineties, I far preferred to do it with a Cherokee than with a 172, and yes, to this day I will much rather fly a Cherokee than a 172, and I'm sure for people who did it the other way around, they would probably much rather fly a 172 than a Cherokee.

Interesting tidbit from my C172 conversion, at the time I was doing my national service and I was part of the security squadron at Hoedspruit Air Force base. I was doing the conversion when I got a few days pass, my parents lived in Barberton back then. So this Mirage pilot, a major, knew me from seeing me on guard duty at the base and at Drakensig. But for that weekend we were just student and instructor, which was great. He also happened to be an extremely nice guy.

But obviously back at base I treated him with the due respect and reverence that a troop owes a major, although he did sometimes pause to have a quick chat with me when I was on guard duty and he would come through.