American CRJ and army Black Hawk Mid air - Washington

[cage]

Now its a case of "We told you so"
https://thehill.com/policy/transportati ... g-flights/

Not sure how the distance of a flight impacts the likelihood of a midair. Sounds like politicians trying to score points.
They either have capacity to deal with these flights or they don't.
It will be interesting to see a full ATC transcript across both frequencies.

[dollar]

Given the the number of "near misses" in the US in recent times it was a statistical certainty. Fortunately it wasn't a big airliner. Not to minimize what happened but this has got be a wake up call. The big one is waiting to happen.

[pwnel]

Given the the number of "near misses" in the US in recent times it was a statistical certainty. Fortunately it wasn't a big airliner. Not to minimize what happened but this has got be a wake up call. The big one is waiting to happen.

This seems to be on the helo crew. (not on ATC constraints as referred to above - much as that is an issue too). They're (mil helo) allowed to turn off ADS-B, but that's not a very smart move in that airspace. And then if they DO turn it off, the onus is doubly on them to keep a lookout and avoid. Yet they flew straight into the short final approach at a major airport. Didn't seem to have acknowledged ATC's request to confirm CRJ in sight. I'm afraid Army is going to have a LOT of explaining to do.

[Sunbird]

Looks like the helo crew looked for the other aircraft in the wrong place, in the distance somewhere on finals of the 'regular' runway, 01. They most likely did not expect any aircraft on finals for runway 33, it sounds like ATC had their hands full, and on short notice asked the CRJ to change from 01 to 33. Sad.

[flysouth]

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mo ... 437590.mp4

[cage]

Given the the number of "near misses" in the US in recent times it was a statistical certainty. Fortunately it wasn't a big airliner. Not to minimize what happened but this has got be a wake up call. The big one is waiting to happen.

This seems to be on the helo crew. (not on ATC constraints as referred to above - much as that is an issue too). They're (mil helo) allowed to turn off ADS-B, but that's not a very smart move in that airspace. And then if they DO turn it off, the onus is doubly on them to keep a lookout and avoid. Yet they flew straight into the short final approach at a major airport. Didn't seem to have acknowledged ATC's request to confirm CRJ in sight. I'm afraid Army is going to have a LOT of explaining to do.

ADSB isn't the only way to automate separation, so that sounds like bull.
Both aircraft would have been fitted with TCAS and transponders were active, but it would have been too low for it to activate.
There should have been no scenario where that helo could have got so close to a scheduled flight in controlled airspace.
Try that here. You are instructed either not to cross or to hold.
The yanks are backwards in many respects, and this has been a long time coming.

These midairs are not new. It would have been easy to miss seeing each other. The helo is level, a scan to the side, at night, can easily miss a higher, descending aircraft. The descending airliner can't see what is below its nose.
They should have been prevented from getting so close in the first place. Switching between different frequencies for converging aircraft did not help.

[Darren Hill]

This recording has some of the PAT25 radio comms:

[cage]

What the recording won't show is that these comms were split. They could not hear the respective communications to each other, which may well have helped with situational awareness.

[Christopher]

Everyone listened to the Waffler-in-Chief on that link to the latest press talk at The White House that was posted, above? He may well be correct regarding American ATC (one of my retired ex-SAA B747 skipper friends did <not> have a high regard of ATC in The States, compared with, say, Europe or RSA -- be that as it may); but to go shooting his mouth off less than 24 hours after the accident...it's mind-boggling!

The army helicopter was supposedly operating "in black mode" (?), whatever that means -- why on earth would that be the case, in close proximity to a busy airport at night?

[cage]

This is a regional airport that has only recently been approved for longer-haul ops. It may well be that local procedures and ATC are not geared towards scheduled flights like this. As for the orange turnip - ops normal.

[Wingnutter]

Even if the Blackhawk had its TCAS on, all RAs are inhibited below 1000’ radio altitude. Below 500’ even TA voice alerts are inhibited (at least they are on Boeing). They might have had a traffic indication on the ND but at 400’ on a visual approach with a late runway change they were probably not spending much time looking at that, and were undoubtedly already under pressure.

What I don’t understand is why the controller didn’t issue the AA an immediate climb instruction when his systems warmed him of a potential collision. Big court cases coming.

[jimdavis]

It looks to me as if the chopper flew almost directly into the RJ which had its landing lights on and would have been above the horizon - viewed from the chopper.

Even if the chopper crew didn't see the RJ until the last moment, they must have known not to fly through the approach path of a busy runway. Particularly as they knew they were on a different frequency. I can only guess they were distracted by something else - perhaps connected with their training/testing mission.

jim

[flysouth]

Everyone listened to the Waffler-in-Chief on that link to the latest press talk at The White House that was posted, above? He may well be correct regarding American ATC (one of my retired ex-SAA B747 skipper friends did <not> have a high regard of ATC in The States, compared with, say, Europe or RSA -- be that as it may); but to go shooting his mouth off less than 24 hours after the accident...it's mind-boggling!

The army helicopter was supposedly operating "in black mode" (?), whatever that means -- why on earth would that be the case, in close proximity to a busy airport at night?

Maybe he is waffling, or maybe he has had some info from reliable sources already to indicate that what he says has a bearing? I expect that anyone in his position would be urgently demanding information from the FAA and any other relevant authorities!

[CarlGrobler58]

According to the VFR routing for helicopters in that area the maximum altitude for helicopters is 200 feet specifically to avoid aircraft on final. They were closer to 400. So the heli seems to have been out of position. They also may have had a departing aircraft or another on approach behind this aircraft in sight thinking it's the one they should have been watching. But the aircraft was exactly where it was supposed to be. The heli was high.

[Jabbanaught]

It looks to me as if the chopper flew almost directly into the RJ which had its landing lights on and would have been above the horizon - viewed from the chopper.

Even if the chopper crew didn't see the RJ until the last moment, they must have known not to fly through the approach path of a busy runway. Particularly as they knew they were on a different frequency. I can only guess they were distracted by something else - perhaps connected with their training/testing mission.

jim

Uncle Jim , The CRJ crew would also be looking towards the runway , which is lit up by XMAS tree , very difficult to see Blackhawk position light , so they would have missed it completely