American CRJ and army Black Hawk Mid air - Washington

[flysouth]

The helicopter being higher than permitted by the rules, I would ask does anyone know if there is a rule for the traffic on approach to the runway in terms of flying low on that approach, PAPIS and ILS in action may - on the purely theoretical level - keep such traffic at adequate height to ensure vertical separation, sure - but when something goes awry on finals all such rules can and will fly right out of the window!

It does seem to me that the entire traffic-movement plan and separation rules for this airport were very poorly thought out!

[Wilco-LA]

The choppers could have practiced flying these routes after midnight when the civvi traffic is pretty much non-existent.

I suspect that will be the first thing they will change.

jim

Jim,
These routes are used throughout the day by helicopters (civilian, military, police etc). These routes are not just for continuity of government flights.

The first thing most likely to happen is that DCA tower will have a dedicated controller on each shift for those helicopter routes.
Things may change as to how the Army conducts those flights. Maybe they require an additional crew chief for an extra set of eyes, maybe if NVGs were involved they will only authorize the military to fly those routes using NVGs from ,as you suggested, 12 am to 4 am.

[Wilco-LA]

<Thought the max altitude for that segment was 300 feet>

Just think of what you have written there: <common sense> should tell you that 300' right under the final approach to Rwy33 is almost suicidal! Finish en klaar!

Since there is a steady flow of airlines turning onto a short final directly over your head - just take a moment to calculate what the resultant separation actually works out to be.

Insanity.

Christopher - directly from the FAA chart for Route 4:
Altitude restrictions are as follows "at or below 600 feet MSL to Wilson Bridge, begin descent from 600 feet MSL to arrive at 300 feet MSL over Wilson Bridge. Then at or below 200 feet MSL north of Wilson Bridge."

As they were coming down route 1 to the south to join route 4 the altitude restrictions on Route 1 are to arrive at Key Bridge at or below 300 feet MSL and Memorial Bridge which is further south at 200 feet MSL. The stretch from Memorial Bridge to Wilson Bridge is 200 feet MSL DCA is to the west of the Potomac and inbetween the Memorial Bridge and the Wilson Bridge. So could they have lost SA and thought they were at the correct altitude for the area they were in?

Did the PC misread the chart? Idk. Loss of SA? Was the IP distracted? Or was the PC having a hard time controlling attitude, IP told her to correct. while he and the crew chief were maintaining visual with the wrong RJ.

[Wilco-LA]

Flysouth,
4 light PAPI with a 3 degree path.
The RJ had the right of way as it was coming in to land.

[Brand Wessels]

[biffvj]

Mover gets the real background.

[propstrap]

From AvHerald, updated yesterday with comments from the NTSB issues 11 Mar 2025...

A review of commercial operations at DCA (instrument flight rules departures or arrivals) between October 2021 and December 2024 indicated a total of 944,179 operations. During that time, there were 15,214 occurrences between commercial airplanes and helicopters in which there was a lateral separation distance of less than 1 nm and vertical separation of less than 400 ft. There were 85 recorded events that involved a lateral separation less than 1,500 ft and vertical separation less than 200 ft.

In my mind, it appears a normalisation of risk and hazard made close calls almost the norm... on the radar the "CA" (Collision Alerts) on both Pat 25 and the CRJ are visible, but as it appeared to be common and accepted, just another layer of cheese removed ...

https://avherald.com/h?article=52374362&opt=0

[ickk]

From AvHerald, updated yesterday with comments from the NTSB issues 11 Mar 2025...

A review of commercial operations at DCA (instrument flight rules departures or arrivals) between October 2021 and December 2024 indicated a total of 944,179 operations. During that time, there were 15,214 occurrences between commercial airplanes and helicopters in which there was a lateral separation distance of less than 1 nm and vertical separation of less than 400 ft. There were 85 recorded events that involved a lateral separation less than 1,500 ft and vertical separation less than 200 ft.

In my mind, it appears a normalisation of risk and hazard made close calls almost the norm... on the radar the "CA" (Collision Alerts) on both Pat 25 and the CRJ are visible, but as it appeared to be common and accepted, just another layer of cheese removed ...

https://avherald.com/h?article=52374362&opt=0

Here's the full prelim report. FAA asleep at the wheel?

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Doc ... Prelim.pdf?

[Brand Wessels]

The altitude (and possible discrepencies) is largely incidental in my view - even if they missed by 300ft it would be "problematic". The lack of lateral separation is what created the accident.

If I read correctly, wIth 19 seconds to impact the CRJ TCAS warned about "Traffic, Traffic" - which they understandably did not act upon. At 20 seconds before impact the tower had a collision alert warning (audible on radio transmission) with the aircraft 0,95nm apart. This probably was the reason for the transmission.

Clearly the crew of both aircraft had no visual on each other, while flyng in VMC and converging rapidly. Did the tower have both aircraft in sight? With the collision warning, a "Fly an orbit to the left" instruction (or something to that effect) to the chopper might have been somewhat more appropriate?

My take on a possible scenario: The CRJ assumed correctly that since they were in controlled airspace and seconds away from landing, they had clear air all the way to the runway. The chopper crew assumed ATC knew where both aircraft were - and that they had the correct CRJ in sight. The ATC assumed the chopper crew had the correct CRJ in sight - and probably did not "buy" the collision alert warning, assuming it to be inconsequential?

"Assumption is the mother of all f**k-ups", comes to my mind.

Just my 2c worth.